Moving character pages from full names to first names

(Disclaimer: this post utilizes Hushbugger's Undertale/Deltarune text dumps as evidence for its points. I recommend you Ctrl+F through it!)

Lately, the wikis (mostly Deltarune Wiki, to be honest) have seen a bunch of changes. Title-cased pages and page sections are being moved to sentence case, pages with pluralized titles are being moved to singular, instances of typesetter's quotation are being changed to logical quotation. In this whirlwind of changes, I would like to propose a perhaps more drastic one: moving characters with their full names as their page title to their most common names.

Analysis:

Let's start with Deltarune, and take as our first example "Kris Dreemurr". In-game characters, menus, battle UI, developer commentary, all merely call them "Kris". Even our wiki primarily uses just "Kris" to refer to them, only using the full name for section headers or to link to their article on their first mention. The only two places where the surname is officially stated is in the URL for one of Noelle's blog entries and one of TV World's random quizzes, and only the first one actually utilizes their full name. The string of text "Kris Dreemurr" is actually completely absent from the game of Deltarune, and yet the wiki titles the page for its protagonist after it, and relegates the name the game actually uses to a mere redirect.

Other characters are not as egregious, but still follow the same trend. "Rudolph Holiday" is another page name that is straight up never used within Deltarune itself; he is only called either "Rudolph "Rudy" Holiday" by his hospital plaque, "Mr. Holiday" once by Toriel, or "Rudy" by everyone else. The same goes for "Noelle Holiday", "December Holiday", "Carol Holiday" and "Catti Cattenheimer", all names that I could not find within the text dump. "Gerson Boom", "Catty Cattenheimer", and "Asgore Dreemurr" have all been named in-game, but the last two are still primarily referred to as "Catty" and "Asgore". ("Gerson" is more of a 50/50.)

You know what character pages are under their first names? Toriel and Asriel, since they have never been full-named within Deltarune, and we teeechnically don't know if either of them kept the surname after the Dreemurr divorce. You know which character pages were under their first names? Kris, Catty and Catti, since their surnames were revealed in the Chapter 3 + 4 update. After that released, their pages had to be moved.

Also, what about Darkners? "Spamton G. Spamton", "Mr. "Ant" Tenna", "Serial Number Q5U4EX7YY2E9N", maybe even "The Roaring Knight"... we have a bunch of Darkners with surnames or full names, and we have no trouble keeping them under their in-game moniker. The only exception is Rouxls Kaard, seemingly because that was his most common name back in Chapter 1, though checking the text dump, it seems he's more commonly called just "Rouxls" nowadays.

Even when it comes to Undertale, a game with significantly less characters with surnames, Asgore Dreemurr and Asriel Dreemurr have their pages titled after their full names. Out of 107 instances of Asgore's name being stated, only three are followed by his surname. Asriel has 37 mentions, and just as well, three of them are his full name. I know one of those is his in-battle name, but that's still less than 10%. (And yet, Loox is still just "Loox".)

Thesis:

All in all, this paints the picture that characters in Toby Fox's games are near-exclusively referred to by their first names. If the amount of characters that straight up do not have surnames was not enough, the few characters that do have them are barely ever referred by them. So, why do we title their articles like that? It seems to me that it's just not an accurate representation of the games's naming conventions.

Besides the above point, these full name page titles are also just, kind of a hassle? Our page text still primarily utilizes the character's most common name, which means a lot of piping [[Rudolph Holiday|Rudy]] and [[Kris Dreemurr|Kris]] and the like. It also means that if any other characters get a confirmed full name, we're going to have to move them and change all their links as well.

Going back to my proposal, moving all these characters to their in-game monikers would solve all these issues. It would accurately represent how the game itself refers to them, it would prevent unnecessary piping, it would avoid conjectural names that have not been uttered in-game, and it would prevent unnecessary page moves if further information is revealed. It would also be consistent with the recently added rule in the Manual of Style that states: "Name of subject must be mentioned or depicted in-game. Otherwise, game asset names should be used if unavailable, or commentary from developers, such as social media or the official Newsletter. In the latter case, a citation must be used."

Now, I know what people are going to say. "Why not just use redirects?" Personally, I am against utilizing redirects to substitute piping, as it makes features such as the "What links here" tab not function correctly. We are not Wikipedia, and the circumstances that warrant its "NOPIPE" policy do not affect us. We're small enough that I could comb through every page in Deltarune Wiki to fix quotation mark formatting in under three days, and I could've done it in one if I had a larger attention span. Linking to redirects because you do not want to pipe a link is just ignoring an integral feature of MediaWiki for no good reason.

If this change is enacted, the following pages will be affected:

Undertale Wiki:

Deltarune Wiki:

Roaring Knight → Knight?

The Knight's article is already titled "Knight".

wait, i might be dumb

(in my defense, im also stupid /ref)

agree. i am a big fan of nopipe but that aside, we never link to characters' full names and that information could just be in the lead. i dont see the need to keep it in the title

How so? It seems functioning as usual to me.

How does this affect the Man → Forgotten Man move, which has been voted on already?

I admit the "What links here" argument isn't as strong when one considers navigation templates muddying it up, but I still believe using redirects in lieu of piping is not a good practice.

Re: Forgotten Man: As I understand it, the "man" vs. "Forgotten Man" argument is less about whether to use a shortened name vs a full one, and more about whether "man" even counts as a name. There's no argument about whether "Kris" is one of Kris Dreemurr's monikers, the issue is about prioritizing the technically correct choice vs. the more representative one.

Agreed. We don’t need last names in our article titles for the same reasons that Wikipedia doesn’t need middle names in their article titles. (WP:COMMONNAME. Even Wikipedia, with its 7+ million articles, has Asgore under just "Asgore".)

I’m a bit skeptical about moving "Rouxls Kaard", since we do usually refer to him with his full name the first time he's mentioned in a particular section of an article.[1] I think the page move should be fine if we more consistently refer to him as just "Rouxls", though.


  1. See Queen's Mansion#Small Town and Card Castle’s Floors 2F, 4F, and 5F. ↩︎

oh bump to say i think "Rouxls Kaard (soundtrack)" should not be moved.
doubtless people are going to go to the Rouxls Kaard page thinking it's the Rouxls page. the amount of people going to the Rouxls Kaard page looking for the track will be far less. i think the identifier should stay if/when we move these pages.

+1, the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the article named "Rouxls Kaard" is still the character in my opinion, especially since [[Rouxls Kaard]] has been the page for the character since 2018.

For prior art, [[The Legend]] redirects to [[Legend of Delta Rune]], while the track is at [[The Legend (soundtrack)]].

i can agree with this. i'm just used to MarioWiki's rules, where (parentheses) are only used if another page has the same title.

Bumping this for further attention, since a discussion about this topic happened on the wiki.

I’m not sure about the Rouxls move, it feels unnatural given how frequently he’s referred to with his full name. I’m fine with the other moves.

I’m also fine with moving character pages to their most used names, in part that:

  1. Yes, we do use their most used names across the wikis.

  2. It is better accessibility for both editors, readers, and people that want to link to articles.

My only concern is that it does come at the expense of articles being a bit less distinguishable from Fandom. Kris’s article has been screenshotted a lot, and I’ve seen some people occasionally ask if a screenshot is from Fandom or us. Is all the slight changes and standardizations we’ve done to the infobox enough?

I frankly do not care about what the Fandom wiki does. I make my suggestions based on what I percieve this wiki needs. If they happen to make a good choice, I don't see why we should avoid it.

As for the Rouxls thing, I think it is reasonable to not move him.

It’s a bit more of an issue with identity than anything.

Hm.

Yeah I completely agree with this. There is almost 0 articles that actually link using their full name. All it does is make pages both look and work clunkier, because articles would either have to pipe or use redirects, both of which are not ideal.

The only exception should be Rouxls Kaard, because he is actually referred to his full name multiple times in the game, and articles do actually link using his full name. Plus the whole Soundtrack confusion that could happen if his page is moved.

I stand by my opinion that we should name the pages after what the character is most frequently called

(E.g. Dess over December, Queen over [insert queen's serial number here], Tenna over Mr. Ant Tenna)

This has already been resolved as of April 14! Thanks for responding everyone, all characters except Rouxls Kaard is now at their first or commonly used names. Thanks also to WitheredFreddy1993 for helping me swap out all the links too!