@F-sharp
It seems there is a bit of a skirmish going on over at leitmotifs at the moment.
You have deleted all sighting of the holy leitmotif, seemingly claiming that the holy is only referenced in dump.
I feel that it is safe to say that this is incorrect.
Many, MANY people with musical backgrounds and knowledge, myself included, have all been agreeing that the holy consists of three separate melodies, which are referenced across all the tracks that you have deleted sightings of.
(Truthfully I don't know about ATRIUM so maybe we could come to an agreement to kill that off the face of the earth lmao but the rest of them definitely do.)
Would you be able to explain why you keep deleting these?
I already explained my reasoning in my edits (edit 1 and edit 2; I linked the wrong thread in edit 2, whoops), but I will explain again here.
The most recent thread on this topic currently consists of two people who agree with you and two people who are disputing you. That is far from a definitive resolution, especially regarding a motif that has been disputed multiple times previously. If there are more people who agree with you, they have not made themselves known on this wiki.
If you want my opinion on the matter, I also disagree that THE HOLY motif is referenced that many times. In tracks that you claim to include "part 1" of the motif (SWORD, ATRIUM, Ever Higher, and Before the Story), the track follows a chord progression that does not match the original track. In Sunset of Seven Suns, a track that was listed to reference "part 2" of the motif, the notes cited do not match the original melody at all. After taking a second listen, the only track that I agree should have stayed listed was Flashback (Excerpt).
For disputed information to be added to the wiki, there needs to be clear consensus to add it. It does not set a good precedent to add such information before or while a discussion is going on.
Motifs do not need to be of the same chord as their original.
I'd like to cite the thought process "rainingsans" here.
(Y'can find it here)
The logic goes that if it makes sense, then it goes.
The usage of sans in IRSE is not the same chord progression as "sans", and is warped to fit.
In fact, a good few toby songs utilise leitmotifs while not using the same chord progression.
As I said in the discussion of the holy p1, the tracks are very clearly meant to evoke the holy. The swelling, often uses on instruments, in that same stagnant pattern. These are, by all means, all references.
Also, maybe there were people disagreeing on the wiki, but the overall deltarune community (at least on the discord and youtube sides) agree that these tracks are connected.
Additionally, Sunset of Seven Suns definitely DOES have the holy p2. I've listened to it over and over, and peered through recreations. What is heard is definitely part 2 of the holy.
I propose leaving it to a poll.
Dude 2 people agreeing with us is already better than the 0 who agreed with you and you changed it back anyway lmao, let it go why do you hate the holy so much.
Also I've seen the threads for previous "disputes" of this and they, too were just 1 person disagreeing and just removing it with another just echoing what YOU said (despite you not being in that conversation) instead of thinking for themselves.
How about this thread, where people clearly agree, or this one or this thread where someone is expressing confusion that it's gone, and they get a reason where.... no thread is provided? Even in my thread people agree, and CLEARLY here too.
by the way, the evil deltarune wiki seems to have part 2 of the holy listed in SPAWN at 0:56 to 1:10, I can't for the life of me recognize the part 2 motif so maybe you should check it out and see if it's actually there
Fandom?
yeah, pretty sure they're just schizophrenic but it wouldn't hurt to check it out
Does the holy feature in the songs in discussion (except atrium we can ignore that lol)
PLEASE VOTE so that we may have a conclusion to this.
- Yes
- No
0
voters
I trust Mr. Motif
Idk, a straight yes or no isn't really enough to convey my full opinion on this. I'm highly doubtful of Ever Higher, ATRIUM, and SoSS (at least their intentionality) and I'm also doubtful of Before the Story. I definitely buy enough into SWORD to assume it's intentional, but part of the issue at play here isn't just "do we think it's more likely intentional or unintentional", it's more like "how sure do we have to be that something is there/intentional to include it", and there's not really a hard line that can be drawn. Like, there is an argument that you can't guarantee with 100% certainty that a motif that simple is intentional in the same way you can with most others, but we have to decide whether to include it in spite of that (considering that, at least in SWORD, it's at minimum likely intentional)
why are you acting like every toby fox song uses a similar melody
no undertale songs have this note sequence ever with the velocity swells
it's pretty clearly the holy
Agree with Kapola7 as well for the most part
It is a bit harder to figure out, but at least for me:
-ATRIUM is the hardest to hear out of them all
-Ever Higher is a bit easier but does have a lot of variation
-Before the Story seems more similar/doesn't change as much
-SWORD is the easiest one. I think it even uses the same or a similar sounding soundfont
Right-o, all!
Some clarificationals.
I've done some checking through recreations and transpositions, because I got tired of people just saying "nuh-uh."
Firstly, all the sightings of The Holy Part 1 are correct.
The swelling always accompanies them, and they're almost always on strings.
(I didn't check atrium though because I find it funny just to ignore atrium)
Secondly, Sunset of Seven Suns does NOT contain the holy part 2. After some actual comparison, the two solely share vibes. Not actual motifs.
Thirdly, the poll has resulted in a resounding "yes", so we can now all agree that the holy part 1 and 2 and 3 and etc are all valid leitmotifs that will be on the wiki henceforth.
If somebody can fix the leitmotifs page back, we can call this a done deal!
(If someone could actually check atrium that'd be handy)
Glad we could get this sorted.
Came back here to make a case for ATRIUM again, I think you can hear it more when you slow it down... if this doesn't convince you though then let's just leave it at that.