About Ralsei's pronouns

Wiki Discussion
85

I'm also going to chime in and say that including a pronoun that's been used once and even clarifying that fact just comes off as a sloppy compromise. Multiple other (gendered) characters have been they/them'd. Why make an exception for Ralsei? Especially when the justification comes from a very loose theory with very little rationale. I doubt many people would have objections to only including the he/him.

Sorry if this argument has been made in this thread already, I don't have the time to read all of these text walls.

86

I'm also going to chime in and say that including a pronoun that's been used once and even clarifying that fact just comes off as a sloppy compromise. Multiple other (gendered) characters have been they/them'd. Why make an exception for Ralsei? Especially when the justification comes from a very loose theory with very little rationale. I doubt many people would have objections to only including the he/him.

That's where I've been mostly arguing from. It muddies the waters and hasn't been an issue for any characters in the past, ever, but is only being given weight to play into an unconfirmed theory that a lot of people are passionate about. I'm not saying the theory is even false, but the vast majority of people do seem to think leaving it as "he/him" is the correct go to. Our sister wiki over on Fandom also had this same discussion and decided to leave it as only he/him unless future chapters make it more clear or double down on it. I was personally urging that we do not put it in the box because the box should be used for established, citable, repeatable fact. That's it.

It's just a pragmatic decision.

Having it up with minimal evidence could cause harm and spread misinformation and divide more.

Leaving it down until we have more evidence of its intended use causes no harm, shows impartiality, and gives us more credibility.

Like, yes, the title uses they/their, but Ralsie is then he/him'd in the main fight of the game and by all other characters other than Asgore, who doesn't know Ralsei, and uses it in the exact same manner consistent in its use in English when the subject is unknown to the speaker, as Ralsei is.

One outlier source does not a good, reliable journalistic source make.

87

Right, not to mention how it's disputed if they/them is even referring to Ralsei or not in the Power menu, which I hold that it isn't via the way it's read and understood in Japanese. We've already established that the usage of they/them by Asgore isn't to establish personal pronouns by now.

88

You are overstating the impact that stating this information in the infobox has, given that we've already included they/them for Lanino and Elnina with very few instances in the game's text, and nobody ever had an issue with it to my knowledge. How is that any different from this?

Again, this isn't about any theory, and this isn't about Ralsei's gender. We're stating the fact that Ralsei has been they/themmed once, and that's it. I don't know what you thought was the purpose of that infobox field, but it's always been a way to list all pronouns of a character, no matter how minor. Although not all of the pronouns from the pronouns table have been included in articles (particularly the it/its from the generic SPARE text) you can check it as a reference.

Frankly, I do not care what the Fandom wiki does. The Fandom wiki added a "Gender" parameter to their character infobox which is 10x more likely to cause debates than simple pronoun inclusion from my and others' personal experience (see also: the Hollow Knight wiki debacle). If we were looking to avoid starting debates in the community, I would definitely not look up to the Fandom wiki.

89

Yes, but our wiki - this one here - is the one actively being spread around on r/deltarune and r/Ralsei as "proof" that Ralsei is trans/personally using they/them pronouns/etc since it is "acknowledged" by the "official wiki."

Ralsei got some new pronouns this chapter : r/ralsei

(I share this one because it's the LEAST problematic / vitriolic of the options). Now, I don't care about this theory. You don't care about this theory. But since we did this for Ralsei and not Noelle for basically the exact same reasons, it can be construed to look like a confirmation.

I only bring up the Fandom wiki because they also talked about adding they/them to the page, and ultimately decided to wait until Chapter 6 to see if it is continued, or if it was a one-off like with Noelle and Lancer. They aren't us, but their logic is still worth considering.

I guess that's why I'm so confused. Ralsei is the only character where this has come up in this regard. With Lanino and Elnina, it has a bit more merit since the characters are intimiately knowledgable of each other and they both do it back and forth though (though it's also how I talk naturally to. ex: "Where's your brother?" "They'll be here later." English just naturally drops to they/them alot).

But yeah, Lanino/Elnina both use it in dialogue, with each other present, and they definitely know each other. Lancer didn't know Noelle. Asgore didn't know Ralsei. So why is Ralsei the exception?

The reason to outsiders looking in seems to be because there is a group of people who have built entire theories around Ralsei's gender and are pushing for one or the other. In our effort to be inclusive, we could very well actually be exclusionary. We don't look unbiased, it looks like we objectively picked a side, because we didn't stay consistent on how we apply this.

Like if we look at the pronoun table, it's a mess compared to the current articles (listing they/them for Susie because Toriel calls Kris's unknown friend a they, same for Undyne and etc). The pronoun table also only lists He/Him for Ralsei (just hasn't been touched yet I assume), but very few references from it are actually live on articles, and the justification for Ralsei's they/them is the same for the ones on that table, but they've been excluded from almost everyone's infobox.

So to be consistent we'd need to basically add it to everyone's info box (which is silly, and we should NOT do that), or it should be removed from Ralsei's to fit the same standard we applied to literally every other character. That's the core issue here: it is NOT consistent, but on Ralsei, and Ralsei alone, there is a dedicated pushback on keeping it consistent and the question becomes "why?" And the defense as to the why has been confusing at best.

I guess the genuinely honest question is: Is there any harm in, for now, deciding to exclude it from the info box until chapter 6 and we can see if there is any merit in it being used for Ralsei as intended or as a general vague usage as is notably common? Elnina and Lanino are an exception: they used it twice, and in regards to each other. That's fine. That is a notable outlier that can be easily cited. But Ralsei doesn't fit within that same outlier.

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90

If you look at the article currently though, I think it's a good compromise. It notes that they/them is used, but also notes that it is only used once by an unbiased source. So it can't really be screenshotted as "proof" of the theory or anything, when we put "(primarily)" for he/him.

91

That has negated a lot of it. Unfortunately the screenshot of before it was edited is what is making the rounds, but I'm hoping it'll die out. I am PERSONALLY happy, currently, with the current state of it. For me, as a human, the current state is enough. But the autism in me spots the inconsistencies and it's stuff I'd have gotten slammed for at my job, so it's hard to turn that off.

Every fandom is a bit insufferable, and I know (and you here all know) Wikis are fallible. But this is feeling like Krisgate all over again and that was a nightmare time for the community and I just DON'T want that again, that's all.

92

Because we're not using Asgore as the reference, we're using a (non-parametrized) narration line. I don't want to argue in circles about this, we've all already written off the Asgore line.

93

Because we're not using Asgore as the reference, we're using a (non-parametrized) narration line. I don't want to argue in circles about this, we've all already written off the Asgore line.

Wasn't trying to come off argumentative, I'm aware my blunt tone does that. I really DO apprecitate the effort being put in.

Apparently, I was pulling up a cached version of the page cuz I was still seeing the Asgore line. I can see the current one now and it looks good. So that is ENTIRELY my bad. Spotty ass internet out here causing me no end of issues, but I still should have checked that first, that's basic stuff. <3

94

i'm satisfied with the current state of the page. i think "he/him (primarily)[1][2] they/them (once)[3]" provides all the information a reader needs and it's the kind of thing that could be brought to other characters if we have a similar situation.

as for the jp translation — it matters for a discussion of ralsei's gender, but not the pronoun parameter in the infobox. i would also not worry about us having a hollow knight wiki level situation. yes that was "not using they/them because of translations," but it was also combined with "admins not using they/them off of information that people were legally not allowed to see." since that last part isn't remotely true for deltarune i think we're good.

95

I know we kind of came to a consensus here, but looking through the UT pronouns table, us having they/them now for Ralsei due to a one-off is sort of weird, as Papyrus is they/them-ed once by Toby Fox himself, and we only do he/him for him in his UT article.

"UNDERTALE 10th Anniversary Stream - Day 1 (2:21:38)
Toby Fox: By the way are we going to flirt with them"

We should try to stay consistent here; I feel like Papyrus' one-off they/them is the same situation as Ralsei's one-off in the TITLE ( as we've excluded Asgore's per Lancer/Noelle precedent). Either both should be included or neither, in my opinion.

97

Toby's quote there is just kind of proof on how easy it is in natural English to just drop into they/them even when talking about known subjects, because it autopilots a bit and tends to avoid what we perceive as misgendering. Ie if you said "That's my bro, I love them" no one would bat an eye even though you didn't say he. If you said "That's my bro, I love her" you're gonna have people raise eyebrows.

I think the key difference here is that Toby's use of "them" for Papyrus is out of game. He's just talking, using natural language. You'll probably find almost everyone does that, to some degree, about every character.

The "their" we currently use for Ralsei, regardless of my personal feelings on its inclusion, does come the the UI of the game. It can be assumed to be have been done with more intent than casual conversation during a stream.

I'm still, candidly, personally for the removal of they/them from Ralsei's box until it appears more intentional, but the conclusion draw for the current state is logical and consistent enough with the rest of the wiki. Exlcuding it from Papyrus but including it for Ralsei is consistent with how the rules have been enforced.

99

It isn't—earlier in that same stream (1:17:57), Toby uses he/him for Napstablook, which we don't have, and in fact, have had to remove before (revision 489590). Near the start of day 2 (1:07:24), Toby himself says:

Additionally there may be mistakes when referring to certain characters but I'm using speech to text so display my program I mean blame my program you see what I mean

Not everything I say get entered correct he if I slow down to correct things at all then I will only be able to say half as many things so if you see something that seems wrong just assume it's computer colon right parentheses

So if we see Toby saying something out of place in the stream, we're asked to assume that it's just an error in the speech-to-text-to-speech pipeline. However, in the game itself, we know that the dialogue is held to a higher standard of quality, and has been reread and edited before its release to the public. We aren't trying to speculate on Toby's intentions (or lack thereof) on the wiki; our goal is just to document the game as it is.

100

This is such a good discussion, and I'm thankful for Raguna (and others — I'm still halfway thru the thread) for being so thorough. A lot of people are gleefully jumping the gun about this. It's great to be objective.

101

I feel like I should point out some of this that I don't really find as evidence, and more so, vague ideas that relate to identity. For the sake of the argument, I'll just be using he/him for ralsei. I am also dyslexic, so sorry for spelling mistakes. Remember that this is just my opinion, and I don't really care what you personally think. At the end of the day, this is a game, and we are all here to enjoy it. Also, sorry if anything doesn't make sense, as I have poor English skills. I should mention that I don't believe in "femboy erasure" or whatever, I just think (imo) it's harmful to fem-aligned GNC people as trans because there are a lot of trans people who aren't, and a lot of feminine men aren't trans. Someone who has dealt with people (queer people included) treating me differently because I don't present femininely (even though I'm trans !!!), I think it's important not to label such. Of course, it does happen, but that's my personal opinion. My issue is just with the evidence people are providing.

Being trans, I don't believe so. They/them pronouns are used as a gender neutral term, and use that as evidence for him being trans fem. The only two instances that ralsei is referred to as they/them are in the menu and when Asgore refers to him.

In the menu shown at the top of the thread, the use of "their" refers to the vines and not ralsei himself. It's the same vein (haha, get it) as saying something like "a plant that's watering its own roots". Even though it's a metaphor of ralsei, the use of "their" refers to the actual vine. As for Asgore using they/them, as you said, he is unfamiliar with ralsei. It would make sense to use it in this specific context, even with the "pronoun omniscience". This would be different, Asgore used she/her, but it's not that scenario.

Next, in the climbing section, I feel like most people misunderstand the scene. I don't believe it's actual evidence of him being trans, but it's a joke about him being a prince. It's in the same vein as Ash Ketchum wearing the girl's uniform. I'm trying to read any symbolism in the scene, but I think it's just portraying the humorous scene of "there are no more princesses! Guess I'll be the princess!". After the dialogue portion that most people use as evidence, he discusses how it's acceptable to try new things if people want to (I'm summarizing, but that's essentially what he says). I feel that would show that he DOESN'T want to wear the dress, but he's wearing it for Kris. Even so, this entire scene is played out as a joke, and I think if you believe that ralsei is unwilling to change himself because of the prophecy, but also treat this as evidence, they contradict each other, but that's neither here nor there.

I'll just quickly go over this since I've already spent about 15 minutes writing....

  • I don't think the pink and blue represent the trans flag (in my personal opinion, I don't even think it exists in the game because there is canonically no transphobia in deltarune but I know that's lowkey a weak argument), but instead Kris and Susie. (people also say it could just be Kris since it's their color pallete but I digress).
  • I'd concede and say that the flowery dialogue is probably the most solid evidence on here, but I believe that he's using this to ragebait ralsei. To me, calling ralsei princess is the equivalent of calling someone "good boy" or "good girl" to someone. (I personally believe ralsei is just GNC, so)
  • For the egging on portion, it's more of a conflict of messaging and not fully identity. Ralsei is strictly trying to follow the prophecy, whilst Flowery is doing the complete opposite. The line "YOU THINK I WANT IT TO BE LIKE THIS?!" is referring to his role as a prophet / darkerner rather than gender identity. It's the battle of truth where flowery is the optimistic approach of knowing the truth (accepting it's gonna happen and not worrying about it) and ralsei being pessimistic (adhering to the prophecy). With Flowery's death, I feel like mourning someone (even if you didn't like them) is a normal response and doesn't actually point to anything related to ralsei's identity.
  • I feel like this gets disproved when Susie can equip all ribbons. The color of the ribbons doesn't necessarily talk about the trans flag, as it's just common colors that ribbons come in. It could symbolize the trans flag. Susie gained the ability to wear ribbons.
  • Lastly, I think context matters in the wardrobe scene. The first two wardrobes were labelled "Wardrobe of unnecessary things," which gives you a joke about such. Then you open the third one, where ralsei pops out. Instead of this symbolizing a closet, it just refers to the fact that Flowery deemed ralsei as "unnecessary" and not toby telling the player that ralsei is trans. (not to be padantic but it wasn't a closet either :sob: , but that's just me being neurodivergent)

At the end of the day, I do believe flowery, and Ralsei's dynamic is about his identity, but not in terms of gender, but his role in the prophecy. It wouldn't make sense (even story-wise) to make ralsei a trans girl outside his identity. I personally believe he's just gender non-conforming and not exactly trans fem. I don't care if people headcanon as such, I just don't like when people try to provide mid range proof.
okay bye.

102

I'm all for theory discussion, but this isn't particularly the place for it, and theories and interpretations really don't belong on a Wiki that's trying to just present information that is strictly in the game. This particular discussion was simply about if Ralsei should have they/their in his info box and the consensus was a pretty fair "Yes, but..."

I think KockaAdmiralac's reasoning for the single cited source meets a fair criteria for this. Unless Toby changes it/corrects it in a hotfix or comes right out and says it was a mistake from an official source that could be cited, I think we're kinda done here, right? Everything that has been said has been said, I think all angles have been explored, and anything else is just headcanon or personal feelings.

103

The fangamer youtube announcement for No Hat Ralsei said this regarding the restock:

"Today is a big day for DELTARUNE fans...as the No Hat Ralsei plush has made it's triumphant return to the US and EU Fangamer webstores! :face_holding_back_tears:

Bundle them with the Rockstar, Horse and Butler costumes for even more fun! :green_heart:"

Can anyone confirm whether prior instances similar to this have used they/them? I can't tell if this a plural they referring to the plushie restock or a singular they referring to the character. It feels significant to the discussion, if official irl Ralsei promos are using they/them now. The fact that is says "plush" (singular) before saying "them" implies correct grammar would say this is a singular they. Which would absolutely add weight to the use of they/them. It's not certain though. Just wanted to make sure people here saw it.

But for the more pressing concern...

Personally rather than saying "once", I would specifically "menu, mid-chapter 5" or something. Be specific, but let people draw their own conclusions. Because "once" isn't even true. Whether or not you consider the line significant, the fact is Asgore's line means Ralsei was referred to with they/them more than once. So saying "once" is blatantly innacurate.

104

We already discussed to death and established Asgore's use of it is because he is unfamiliar with Ralsei. It is normal to use they/them on someone you don't know. Lancer also does this to Noelle and it happens a few other times as well. Thus, Asgore isn't a reliable source and isn't cited.

The they/them on the Fangamer restock is referring to them as in plural plushies are back in stock, and you can bundle "them" (the plushies) with other things.

105

Yes, but the specific use of the word "once" is still untrue. Deciding what Asgore meant or didn't mean by it is a matter of interpretation, which is allegedly the thing trying to be avoided here. The fact is, Ralsei has been called by they/them more than once. There are ways to relay this information that do not run into this issue of inaccuracy. Even just "infrequently" would be better.

(For the record I checked after replying earlier, and fangamer usually does refer to their plushies with their specific pronouns. "Bring him home" instead of "bring them home". We can't yet concretely say what they meant by this either. It would still be a matter of interpretation rather than stating direct facts.)

106

Fangamer isn't an in-game source, so it doesn't really matter, tbh. A marketing team writes those, not Toby.

We've already established why we aren't including Asgore. It's unreliable source so there is only "once" from what we consider a reliable source (the ui/title). There's also just the fact that we did check for ambiguity's sake and Asgore does use he/him coded pronouns in the Japanese text, which Toby oversees. Lancer also refers to Noelle as "them" and we decided not to include that since Noelle is also unknown to Lancer.

It is common practice to use they/them for an unknown subject in English. Toby himself has use they/them for Papyrus "We're going to kiss them." It just happens.

If you listened to yourself talk every day and really took a tally, in native english, you probably slip to they/them a lot for people you know don't use them.

I don't this this matter is worth re-opening right now. The one time in game that can in good faith be argued to apply to Ralsei has been documented. Until Chapter 6 comes around and potentially gives more, I think that's that.