2 actually
there's the Dark Vine title, for one, but also Asgore says "they"
We've discussed the Asgore reference several times over in this thread, please read up.
I was just pointing out that they said "singular" when there are multiple references to be had
But only one of them is trustworthy enough.
I don’t think it should say once because that is just factually incorrect, maybe say [occasionally]or [end of ch 5] (don’t bring up how he is used near the end of the chapter too, but it wasn’t once that is objectively wrong, even if it’s not from a definitive source, it’s not used once.
If someone was trying to check how many times Ralsei was called a they on the wiki, we would be giving them incorrect information.
Should we not include alternate names from characters that don’t know each other well? Lancer didn’t know Kris’s name for a while so should we remove blue person?
That's not how citing sources works. Also, as we've established, Asgore does NOT use they/them for them in the official Japanese translation (which Toby directly oversees) and it fits the same usage that Lancer does for Noelle. Since it is used in an "unknown subject" situation, which is normal in english, it is not a pronoun based on the subject and thus isn't a citeable source. It is not indicative that Ralsei is being they/themed with intent. So there
The once is accurate based on there it is only used once by a reputable, knowledgable source (and even then, that one is debated, but we reached a consensus on it for now), and only once with specific use towards Ralsei. It is not objectively wrong, it is objectively correct based on how citing works. It is used once directly towards Ralsei from a presumed knowledgable source.
While I tried to sum it up concisely, I encourage you to please read the full discussion, as this was heavily talked about and debated and the criteria and reasoning was sound and consistent with how the wiki standards are upheld.
You're omitting critical context, the full Fangamer post is
Today is a big day for DELTARUNE fans...as the No Hat Ralsei plush has made it's triumphant return to the US and EU Fangamer webstores!
https://www.fangamer.com/collections/...
Bundle them with the Rockstar, Horse and Butler costumes for even more fun!"
Fangamer's calling the plushie itself it/its, and using "them" to mean the plushie(s). It's worth mentioning the Hat Ralsei plush is also back in stock.
Also, something tells me the grammar here wasn't all that intentional to begin with, considering they're using "it's" when they means "its".
i'm sorry but i don't think you can argue that english asgore is using they/them because he doesn't know ralsei's gender AND japanese asgore is using a specifically masculine pronoun to indicate ralsei is male AND the english and japanese versions are fully consistent with each other in terms of what gendered language is used where and when.
I can, because it's how the natural language works.
In English, even if you know someone's pronouns, it is natural in conversation/spoken English to still use They/Them for someone unfamiliar, or when it's just kind of vague conversation. The brain defaults to they/them a lot because it doesn't have to think.
"Hey, did you see Raguna today?" "I talked to them on the phone earlier."
"Where is your sister?" "They're at home."
Using they/them often isn't very deliberate in English, it's pretty natural.
Using a they/them in Japanese is VERY deliberate, because normally it is a gendered language, and to avoid using a gender takes effort. And we know that they make that effort because they do it with Kris, consistently, very deliberately. That deliberate choice is NOT used with Ralsei by Asgore.
Languages are not 1:1, there's a lot of nuance and I candidly and respectfully don't think the comment section of a Wiki is the best place to try to provide an indepth language lesson. Toby writes both scripts, and Toby himself defaults to they/them on stuff all the time (ie: talking about Papyrus in the Undertale stream and saying "We're going to kiss them.")
But the TL;DR is that they/them isn't always indicative of gender in English. It can be a gender indicator (like with Kris) or it can be a generic placeholder (like its singular use often is) or to refer to a group (not applicable in this case, but its most common use).
But none of this matters, we've already settled this. Asgore doesn't know Ralsei, used they/them consistently with uses like Lancer's with Noelle and other cases, and thus isn't counted. The Title, while ambiguous, is still more concrete and consensus was it was solid enough to add and met the criteria.
(TL;DR - it's a localization thing. English tends to be more vague with implications and less gendered language, and less tone indicators, Japanese tends to be much more direct and less subtle and explicit.)
Because the Japanese dialog establishes unfamiliarity differently using tone and kono ko, while the best English equivalent to establish unfamiliarity is using they/them.
Dose this mean he's a they them
As of right now? Canonically, no, since no in-universe /non-meta source calls them such and they haven't indicated they identify as such. The title has an ambiguous syntax and is missing from one localization.
But tecnically, we're all X/they based on how English works.
So do whatever you want with it, but the game consistently he/hims Ralsei, even after this title is applied, and the title is temporary and will be replaced by whatever title comes back.
Before I start my argument, I would like to remind you that Toby works closely with the Japanese team to ensure that all pronouns and storyline elements align with the English version, so...
In Japanese dub, Asgore refers to Ralsei as この子, which is translated as this kid because he doesn't know Ralsei's gender.
Also, Ralsei refers to himself as 僕 -ボク- boku (See the image below) , which is a MALE pronoun. Girls don't use this pronoun, they often use 私 （わたし）- Noelle uses this word. For genderless character - Seam (The Shopkeeper) uses あたし(atashi) .
As a cherry on top, 'Boku' gives off a vibe of sweetness and softness, which really fits Ralsei. I really love the way Ralsei refers to himself as 'Boku' in Japanese.
To play devils advocate here, girls can use boku in unconventional matters like how Susie uses the very masculine pronoun ore, since first person pronouns in Japanese aren't really as strict when it comes to gender agreement, however you do have a point that if Toby wanted to foreshadow a pronoun change, making Ralsei start using something other than boku from this chapter onwards would've been a very clear and clever way to do it, yet that hasn't happened.
Piggybacking on this, yeah, first person pronouns in Japanese are more reflective of how the speaker themselves feels or wants to be seen rather than actual statement of gender. Like you said, girls can and often do use boku, especially when they're being more active/tomboyish, or attempting to convey a feeling of youthful energy or adventure. But're useful, but not particularly telling of gender.
Ralsei probably likes boku because it's a softer one, girls sometimes use it too, and he's childlike.
Susie likes seeming tough and badass, so ore makes sense for her. It's pretty common in a lot of japanese media for "tough girl" female characters to do the same (especially with criminal ties).
For a fun example, Marisa, the super strong female gladiator from SF6 always uses very feminine pronouns for herself, because she sees herself as very feminine and wants to be a bride someday. Meanwhile, Juri is all over the place, and has used ore before, showing a sort of disregard for the language in general, and usually changes it to match who she's speaking to and how intimidating she's trying to be.
Monster Kid also Shows that Ore is Definitley used for The toughness association when combined with Susie. Because that kid is not tough but they sure want to be.
I know this topic has mostly settled, but it's worth noting that not only did Fangamer make another marketing post explicitly using him for Ralsei today:
but I emailed Fangamer asking about the wording of their earlier post in which it supposedly uses they/them Pronouns for Ralsei, and here's what they had to say.
He/They Icon Heck Yeah.
Ralsei is concretely referred to as he/him, there are minor instances of he/they for him, and while these do seem to be valid, all the main instances (people who know him, etc.) seem to refer to him as he/him, as far as I know.