About Ralsei's pronouns

Wiki Discussion
65

But it also isn't in the powers text in Japanese either. There's literally no instance in that translation of they/them at all. It doesn't use one at all, which is common for the powers to avoid using any.

闇ヅル(LV5)
専用イバラに
水やり。

And sorry, Asgore isn't even one of the last people to talk about Ralsei in the chapter. The entire scene with Flowery and the Knight happens after that, and Ralsei is he/him again after that from everyone else. Asgore literally doesn't KNOW Ralsei, but everyone who does is consistent.

66

Disappointing, but fair. I do think this has only served to spark a lot of really virtriolic debate in other spaces, and I really wish you hadn't added it to begin with, but if the admins want it to stay, that's that I suppose.

We're now not consistent with the other wiki and I think this is just going to be fuel for a lot of division within the Deltarune community, something we really need less of right now.

I do feel like doing this for Ralsei and NOT doing it for Noelle is a weird double standard then, and shows a bias.

67

I think this reason alone is why I would keep the pronouns in the infobox. We're not stating Ralsei is trans, we're just stating what pronouns has he been referred to with in-game, by the narration. I think it's useful information to know, and we're not forcing any particular view on Ralsei's gender.

I don't buy the localization argument. We are an English wiki for an English game, and therefore the information should be primarily based on the English text. If any of you remember the recent (November) gender fiasco at the Hollow Knight Wiki, I'd rather us not go down that path and use localizations to debate the English pronouns.

I agree we should come to a consensus on this and apply it consistently, even if it means removing these pronouns from Ralsei's infobox. My word as an admin on this matter is not, and should not be, final. I currently see consensus to keep them rather than remove them, though.

I'm moving this thread to Wiki Discussion for visibility so that other users can state their opinion on this. I also removed some off-topic replies from here that were discussing Ralsei's gender, when that isn't what the topic was about.

68

Normally I wouldn't put much stock in the Localization either, but since Toby Fox does directly oversee it for Deltarune and it has been used in the past to clear things up, and it would be weird to confirm it in one language but not the other, I think there's some stock there.

That said, I don't want to argue it. I think leaving it for Ralsei but not adding it for Noelle is a bit of a double standard and feels weird, but at the end of the day I'm not losing sleep over this. I just hate that it is causing a lot of places to implode right now.

69

I'd say the main difference is that you can argue Lancer is an unreliable narrator here, whereas Ralsei's instance is... from the game's narration itself. Then again, I guess we did remove it/its from Sans's and Papyrus's infoboxes. We should probably decide on one or the other.

70

This is generally why I say it should be removed (and noted into the trivia) for now. If it is meant to be, chapter 6 will clearly clarify it. If not, then we don't have a potentially false characterization sitting there for months. I think the best move is to take it down with the understanding it goes back up if chapter 6 continues it, or Toby clarifies it somewhere, with no further discussion on the topic then because then it's settled. If it's meant to be, Toby won't make it a one off, and if it isn't, then we've avoided the problem entirely.

I won't keep chiming in, I don't want to dominate the conversation, but I basically just would rather we be consistent across all the pages, especially given how Ralsei's gender and identity have sparked fights since chapter 1 and I'd rather not keep throwing unsubstantiated fuel on the fire (I personally don't care, got no dog in the fight, Ralsei is Ralsei, but I do want him represented accurately, especially with the care given to do so with Kris).

So, fwiw, in good faith, my "vote" is to remove it for now, maybe footnote it in trivia so it isn't fully buried or lost, and keep our eyes open for further confirmation in chapter 6. I think that's the responsible thing to do, avoids any appearance of bias, keeps us consistent with other wikis and info pages, and allows us to quickly pivot back if anything changes.

71

I think the best policy to have here would be that one-off pronoun references should be in the infobox, if that usage is from a character or other entity that would conceivably know the character's pronouns (including narration, menus, etc.), unless the text is generally used to refer to many different characters.[1] However, if a character is overwhelmingly referred by a particular pronoun, the number of references in the infobox should reflect that (e.g., Ralsei would have 2 or 3 he/him refs next to the singular ref for they/them).

I based this proposal off of these principles, which I think seem reasonable:

  1. "But its name wasn't YELLOW..." (or similar generic battle text) shouldn't put "it/its" into the infoboxes of every character that is ever battled.
  2. Some they/them uses are purely to signify that the speaker is unfamiliar with the subject, and do not signify that the subject uses those pronouns in any capacity (and thus are not relevant).[2]
  3. However, other usages of pronouns from speakers familiar with the subject,[3] including one-offs, are pronouns used to refer to the subject—even if they aren't commonly used, the wiki should present the fact that they are used.
  4. Although, the wiki should make clear which pronouns are commonly used and which are not, to prevent giving WP:UNDUE weight to one-offs.

  1. e.g., "<PARTY MEMBER> spared <X>! But its name wasn't YELLOW..." ↩︎

  2. such as:
    "Who's Alphys? No idea who you're talking about.
    ... Why, did they do something illegal!?
    Gotcha, if I see "Alphys," I'll tackle 'em!!
    Fuhuhuhu!! They're as good as dead!!    " — Undyne, Chapter 1
    or
    "Can we make them a bad guy?" — Lancer, referring about Noelle, Chapter 2
    or all of Asgore's dialogue about Ralsei at the Dark Fountain at the end of Chapter 5 ↩︎

  3. which includes the game's narration ↩︎

72

I could see this being a decent middle ground concession, especially if it is noted that even after a certain pronoun is used, another is still overwhelmingly used. Once Ralsei has the "their" in the title, every other character aside from Asgore, who is unfamiliar with Ralsei at all and is literally unable to get a good look at him, still overwhelmingly uses He/Him, as does the menu/UI ("Ralsei gave it his all!" for his R-Action in the Flowery fight). This is why I'm so hesitant about this particular case. The instance of "their" being used in the UI for Ralsei only for literally every other UI instance, both before and after this, still using He/Him just looks like an oversight or it meaning to be vague. I also think "Their" in this case refers to the literal, titular Vine in the title, not to Ralsei. That's why I'm really wishing we'd err more on the side of caution until Word of God / Toby is able to weigh in. Mistakes happen. Things get overlooked. There have been several grammar and spelling errors already corrected since launch in this chapter. I just think removing it, for now, and giving it time to breathe and see where it shakes out is the prudent call. But I'm an overly cautious guy who likes to triple check everything X_x

But if we're gonna keep both in the info box, at least making it clear which pronoun seems to be the preferred one might be the way to go? Or maybe split it as "Primary Pronoun/Secondary Pronoun"? Or "Primary / Possible?" Maybe put They/Them with a question mark and note that it is at least a bit unclear as of right now?

(Edit: really didn't plan to chime in again, but I thought Cod at least had an interesting compromise if the consensus is to keep it, and wanted to try to be helpful and expand upon that)

73

I like this idea.

74

The use of their in the Dark Vines title is consistent in referring back to the title itself, not the character. For example, the Broken Bead. The pronouns should be page as it is missing from the Toby Fox approved and overseen Japanese translation and a big character moment like this wouldn't be completely absent from one translation. This is just a flaw in the English language with an unclear subject and the they/them pronoun usable being naturally inconsistent and flexible. I think a policy of posting every pronoun that refers to a character is flawed, but should stick to pronouns that align with the identity the character is portraying. If I said 'I like them' about one of you, would you then agree you have they/them pronouns? No. Ralsei and Noelle's pronouns both are pretty clearly set by now, with lots of evidence. If there was a singular instance of a he/him or a she/her leveled at Kris, we would all assume it was a fluke unless it started to be consistent from multiple sources, and all characters should be expanded that same level of scrutiny and care.

75

The title is "Dark Vine", not "Dark Vines". A vine is an "it" in English, not "they".

76

Respectfully, I think Omnifarious has a point here. An "it" can't water itself, it isn't sentient. "They" can. And this whole chapter really just drilled home the fact plants are sentient in the dark world. There are also 2 dark vines - Ralsei AND Susie. People do also use they/them to describe plants a lot in English. Like, almost all the time. We also went out of our way this chapter to establish a singular flower could be they/them, especially if sentient. This is actually pretty in line with what the chapter has been doing.

Omni also seems to be correct in that all the titles do seem to be referential to themselves, with the exception of some of Kris's, and Flowery's which also breaks the rules and addresses Kris directly.

I also just gotta be honest, Omni also raises a VERY strong point with the Kris thing. If there was a usage or two of a gender pronoun for Kris, I don't think we'd rush to add it to the Wiki, especially after there has been so much effort and 4+ chapters of They/Them. I think we'd at first believe it is a typo or writing snafu and wait for further clarity. I come from a journalist background (back when that actually meant something) and so I admit I'm coming at this from that angle. I want multiple sources before making major edits and changes, and I think this has really muddied the waters, especially with the They/Them now also having been added to Noelle. This feels, to me, kinda sloppy. BUT a wiki is not a newspaper, and I am not the editor, and I am trying to see it from all angles.

I doubt I'll get a response, but I did attempt to reach out to Toby and the Deltarune team through some promotional contacts I have. If I can get any kind of official answer on it, I'll find a way to get the proof of it to people. I think we could really use some Word of God clarification here, though I won't hold my breath that we'll get it.

Appreciate everyone working on this and taking it seriously though. I know we're all just fans trying to make it right <3

77

Sorry to double post, but it's not letting me edit my most recent one (I might be having spotty internet, there's a bad storm) - we have 2 references for he/him and two references for they/them. I thought the conclusion was 2 for he/him, and only 1 for they/them, to more clearly indicate which has more weight? Can we at least make that change for the sake of clarity?

78

Hey, so I made an account just to give my two cents. I don't know why you guys are complicating this so much. The Title is gender neutral. Susie also gets it after climbing the beanstalk. Different description, same Title. Really seems that simple, don't know why everyone's making a big deal over it

79

I think we're mixing multiple distinct interpretation of the title to justify "their" refering to a metaphorical vine. The chapter does use "they" for singular flowers, specifically when those flowers are distinct characters and that usage explicitly reflects their personal pronouns being they/them. If Ralsei is metaphorically a vine, that metaphorical vine isn't also a distinct character that uses a separate set of pronouns. A metaphorical vine would take it/its in this scenario pretty unambiguously. It's not like Toby Fox doesn't use "it" for sentient beings, he does that constantly for a large number of enemies, like "DarkVine waters its own thorns!" could be flavortext in an encounter and wouldn't be unusual.

I'm not going to 100% rule out the possibility of "their" being an unusual way to refer to a metaphorical vine in this situation, just as "their" is also an unusual way to refer to a character who has previously taken he/him pronouns, but I don't think either can be ruled out beyond a reasonable doubt, which is enough justification to present it on this wiki.

Re: your later comment about the citations, I'm mostly in agreement. I think Asgores usage of they/them is on par with Lancers usage for Noelle and isn't citation-worthy. Unfortunately I think it's cited just so the note can specify that it doesn't exist in the JP translation.

80

The "their" in the title also doesn't exist in the Japanese translation, and I do honestly think it missing in Japanese is a big deal in both cases.

Earlier this year, Toby spoke at length about why the game is only officially in English and Japanese

Toby Fox Defends Limited Language Options In Undertale And Deltarune: 'I Want It To Match My Vision' - Game Informer

Quoting the most relevant part:

" I know it sucks that there are no other official translations for UNDERTALE. But I want to make it clear that this isn’t because I have a grudge against other countries. It’s because, if I release something official, I want it to match my vision. I was only able to do this for the Japanese version because I know Japanese myself, and I worked very closely with our brilliant translator to thoroughly check the text. I am not against official translations for other languages if we could make it work the same way… In the past I have looked into various options with my publisher, 8-4, but nothing has come of that yet. Maybe I should try a different approach." - Toby Fox, March, 2026

Toby is fluent in Japanese, and personally oversees it.

Mostly, I just want a definitive answer on this because I hate the fighting. You can't go on twitter or reddit without them using this article as more fuel for the fire now. Hell, I've seen this very page quoted and cited as proof the community is toxic (Which is crazy, everyone here has been very civil and is just trying to do the right thing by the plot <3)

Maybe Toby will see the confusion and issue a statement, like he did with Kris, or a hotfix will simply clear up the language (by either changing the Japanese to be consistent with English, or the English to be consistent with Japanese).

Regardless, unless I get new information, I'm gonna try resist the stupid journalist in me needing to keep pushing for this. I keep hearing my editor in my head who would have chewed me out for this, but this isn't a publication, this isn't a paper, and everyone is doing their best. And I appreciate that.

81

yeah, this unfortunately broke containment and reached Twitter, with lots of people misreading and misinterpreting my arguments and thinking I have a malicious or transphobic motivation for making them, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Honestly it's just that I really care about Ralsei's character and his writing, and want to clear up any misconceptions about him wherever I can. I sincerely do hope this doesn't escalate into a fandom-wide drama, and it can be resolved in a civil manner by everyone involved.

82

(Replying to everyone who's brought it up, not to anyone specifically)
Frankly, the Japanese translation of these lines doesn't matter. Yes, Toby takes great care to align the translation with his "vision" for Deltarune; the Japanese translation would be very important if we were trying to answer a general question about what Ralsei's gender is, but that's not what the "Pronouns" parameter is about. The question that we need to answer to fill out this section of the wiki article is "What English pronouns are used to refer to Ralsei by official sources?" And from that perspective, the they/them in Dark Vine is something that we need to document.

What would be a major change would be saying that Ralsei uses he/they interchangeably and at about equal frequency, and that would require a lot more references. In the current state of Deltarune, this is just false, and the wiki page should be corrected if it suggests that. It should state the facts about the game's text, which is that Dark Vine is a one-off they/them for Ralsei, who is otherwise referred to with he/him.

I've gone ahead and WP:BOLDly taken off the note about the Japanese translation and the reference from Asgore's dialogue from Ralsei's pronouns (revision 151689).

83

I see where you're coming from, but it is common practice to use official translations to sometimes verify ambiguity, especially when the man writing it is directly involved. That said, I do think the current edit (where it denotes the they/them was onced once) is a fair compromise until Toby himself weighs in or some other official source needs it.

I do still personally think the "their" in this case does refer to the vine of the title and is in line with other titles all being referential to themselves, but without WoG to clarify, this is likely a safe-ish bet.

The initial issue was what you basically highlighted - the way they/them was initially presented on the wiki implied they were of equal use and interchangable, and the fandom at large was wielding it to start more fights (god I'm sick of the fights). Not that the fighting will stop, but this should hopefully put the majority of it to bed in its current state.

84

Frankly, the Japanese translation of these lines doesn't matter. Yes, Toby takes great care to align the translation with his "vision" for Deltarune; the Japanese translation would be very important if we were trying to answer a general question about what Ralsei's gender is, but that's not what the "Pronouns" parameter is about.

Except the debate revolves around the fact it's ambiguous if they/them is even referring to Ralsei in the first place, or the vine he's being compared to. The reason I brought up the Japanese translation to show that it's probably the latter (since that's the most natural reading of the sentence in Japanese), and that Toby wouldn't leave foreshadowing about a character only accessible in one language and not another (since, to the best of my knowledge, there are ways to indicate Ralsei's shift in identity in Japanese and it's not a structural limitation of the language unlike Romance languages; none of those ways were taken.)

I've gone ahead boldly and taken off the note about the Japanese translation and the reference from Asgore's dialogue from Ralsei's pronouns (revision 151689).

I'm a bit disappointed in this decision, specifically because the note provided crucial context that this reading isn't present in all official versions of Deltarune, and it seemed like the most reasonable middle ground to avoid confusion for everyone involved while still having they/them up on the page. I would suggest this be reversed, although at this point I'm feeling a lot of stress myself over this blowing up and making people angry, so I'd say do what you think is best given these current circumstances.