I was the one who added they/them. I'm of the opinion that if characters like lanino and elnina, who already have preset pronouns, sometimes get referred to as theythem... if the wiki has both for them, then ralsei should have both too.
This applies to other main characters too.
Right but I think you should remove it. Lanino and Elnina are referred to as "they/them" sometimes because it is referring to both of them as a couple, not them specifically. And as people have pointed out, the only two instances of Ralsei being they/them'd only exist in the English version, not the Japanese version.
There are literally over 300 examples of Ralsei being called a boy, he/him, etc. in the script, 600 across both English and Japanese. There are only 2 examples of Ralsei potentially being called they/them, both only occur in English, and both seem to be trying to convey as sense of unfamiliarity.
I get where you're comin from, but a wiki needs to have hard, objective facts, not opinion. I don't even dislike the idea of Ralsei potentially exploring these themes. But two very fringe uses that seem like potential flukes shouldn't change the pronouns.
FWIW, the other wiki over on fandom also had added they/them to Ralsei but chose to remove it in light of this evidence as well. Cite: Removed they/them because it clashes with the Japanese localization of the aforementioned lined and subsequently the line's actual authorial intent, which was not to establish they/them as personal pronouns for Ralsei. More information about this can be found on the talk page.
I think we, as custodians of the wiki, need to to the same until it becomes more prevaliantly used. Lancer uses they/them once for Noelle, for instance, and I don't think we should add that to her page either.
(Also, happy 1 year anni!)
Yea, agreed
what are your thoughts on my analysis above? because personally I don't think they/them is referring to Ralsei at all, or not in a way that would make they/them his personal pronouns, and it'll just invite confusion especially for multilingual fans of the game. people are already screenshotting this as "proof" Ralsei uses they/them as personal pronouns when that's explicitly contradicted by several things discussed in this thread.
OOOOOORRRRR
toby could have made a mistake with pronouns
ORRRRRR
we could take it as some massive lore dump and that toby is foreshadowing that ralsei is trans
RC: what if we did a poll?
Like people as I've said at least for now he's a guy okay? Just because he was called by Asgore (who doesn't know who Ralsei is) with "they" doesn't mean he's thinking about a gender change or something.
Before the game confirms it, there shouldn't be any immediate jumping to conclusions, okay?
I do actually agree with you but I can still see it as a possibility regardless
Small correction, but these sources are actually refering to just one of them. Hence why I said I added it.
I completely agree, I've had to remove an edit of someone saying flowery was making him question his gender even though he doesn't explicitly do that.
I still think it could happen but right now there's not enough evidence to put it in an article.
sure, it's a possibilty, but it's not confirmed at all right now and is actively contradicted by the localization. considering the fact people are using this wiki as evidence that Ralsei uses they/them, I'd suggest removing it for now until further notice (like any Fangamer merch or newsletters that confirms the they/them pronoun)
Possiblity or not, even if I might even agree with you, the Wiki needs to be as impartial as possible and not bank on possibility or opinion. When there is zero mention of they/them (and the they/them in the title seems to be referring to the vines/thorns, not Ralsei) in the Japanese localization, and Asgore even doubles down on calling Ralsei "he," I think we should in good faith remove it from the info box. I think a triva segment where it is brought up the English title does use they/them could be fine, and a footnote that if anything changes Ralsei's gender/pronouns will be changed, but leaving it up for now is just causing confusion and being used as evidence for more fighting in places like forums and reddit.
Lets hold ourselves to a high standard of evidence, regardless of our personal feelings. It sucks sometimes but we owe it to ourselves to do it right and owe it to Toby to have the chance to make it clear if this is where the character is going.
[Removed this part because I've read differing perspectives and honestly my opinion on this has changed a bit. I can go either way right now.] I literally just put the pronouns there to keep things impartial and because other people wanted it. I can go either way I just think there should be a consensus first.
Yeah but I think we're doing it backwards. There should be a consensus before it is added, not add it first and then remove if it there is a consensus to remove it. Think of it like the news, right?
You hear there is a fire at a building. You also hear that someone was still in the building when it burned. You don't want to write "One dead in fire at Building X" You write "Fire at Building X" until you can confirm there was someone inside, because you don't want to then have to issue a retraction that something was wrong. Trust, but verify.
The responsible, academic and impartial thing to do is to take it down until there's more evidence, not leave it up, y'know? We don't want to spread misinformation or confusion, and that is what this is doing. This page is literally being used, right now, to start arguments on r/Deltarune and r/Ralsei. People are using it as concrete proof of a pronoun change. We really need to take it down until more source and proof can be collected.
Obviously I can't make you do it, and I'm not trying to come across antagonistic, but I am personally beseeching you or the other editors to please take it down as the responsible thing to do and we can then look at consensus on adding it back later, once everything has been considered.
Like I said, the other wiki (the Fandom one) already took it down for exactly these reasons, with really clearly laid out reasons why:
Talk:Ralsei | Deltarune Wiki | Fandom
While we are a different Wiki, this disparity is kind of glaring and we don't want to be seen, here, as the less accurate wiki.
In my opinion lots of things. I care VERY deeply about equal representation, which is why i like seeing a male protagaonist who are compitent and know what they're doing. Most of the time they're just bumbling idiots who serve nothing to the plot other than comic relif. Ralsei filling the role of a male protagonist who isn't a bumbling comic relife charater is 100% a good thing.
Hello, I'm not a current Wiki contributor, so my thoughts might not be important, but here are some things I'd like to note:
If the wiki is trying to be as neutral and free of interpretation as possible, it seems like the beat course of action is to leave the pronoun information as it currently is now, part of the infobox that tells people that ralsei has been refered to using they/them in some in-game text, which is true. Removing that information on the assumption that said text was mistaken or a metaphor refering to Ralsei as an inanimate object (Inanimate vines would typically use it/its anyways, not they/them) would be imposing an interpretation on it. Currently, if you think that text is insufficient evidence, it's cited on the infobox for people to read and discard if they think it's irrelevant.
As far as my experience as someone who frequently uses the wiki goes, the precident has been to add any set of pronouns used in any narration or dialogue to the infobox. Most random darkners have it/its and they/them because of generic battle text, and I think that's appropriate (the it/its is probably just alluding to darkners being inanimate objects, which is more reason to include they/them for ralsei if you believe that text is doing the same). People should be able to look at the pronouns section of the wiki page and get a list of every pronoun used for any character.
People have mentioned that the localization does not have the uses of they/them, but for that to be valid I'd first need to know for certain would japanese pronouns would fill in for they/them here. Additionally, the main use of they/them for Ralsei doesn't use masculine pronouns in JP, it just avoids using them entirely, so it should be a piece of counter-evidence. Pronoun gimmicks have also been left un-localized in the past as well, like Seam not using any pronouns in EN.
People have noted that Toby Fox wouldn't leave a piece of critical character information unlocalized, but that is again imposing authorial intent onto Toby, when we don't know how Ralsei's arc will progress in future chapters. For all we know, this could be a small piece of foreshadowing for future chapters that didn't translate right into JP. It wouldn't be neutral to remove it based on our assumptions of Toby's intent.
TL;DR every pronoun used in dialogue to refer to a character should be in their info box, including they/them for Ralsei. Wiki readers have the ability to check citations and decide the usages validity for themselves.
It's causing a lot of confusion and fights.
Ralsei got some new pronouns this chapter : r/ralsei
Also, to answer your Japanese question...
taken from the talk discussion on the other wiki:
Hey, so I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and share your thoughts about my findings, but I still disagree with your conclusions for various reasons.
However, there is no strict they/them equivalent for 彼
Correct, but as you've pointed out yourself, there are ways to work around this, like dropping the subject, using kono ko, or just Ralsei's name. The fact Toby didn't do this throughout indicates that kare was an intentional choice, not a limitation of the Japanese language.
I don't think it's a good reason to ignore the sole use of they/them in the English version, especially on an English wiki.
I disagree, specifically because the Japanese localization is co-written by Toby Fox and is used to clarify ambiguities and intent in the English text all of the time, and this wiki itself uses the Japanese dialog as a source of information. This also isn't the first time a gendered character has been referred to using they/them by an unfamiliar character; Lancer refers to Noelle as "them" in the line *"Can we make them a bad guy?"
We don't put "they/them" for Noelle because Lancer used it once for them, and we shouldn't do this for Ralsei. It's inaccurate and fits with the ambiguous/known usage in English as opposed to an intentional one. The fact he is still exclusively He/Him everywhere else really is making this a problem.
Noelle Holiday | Deltarune Wiki | Fandom
It would be neutral to remove it until we have more confirmation, it is NOT neutral to leave it until we have confirmation. Leaving it is, objectively, the biased option.
I would agree with this 100% if Asgores lines were the cited source for Ralsei using they/them, but it isn't, it's the Power screen text. Since that is part of narration, it doesn't have any overtly obvious reason to be using the ambiguous "they" like Lancer is. Likewise, if the JP translation used masculine pronouns in the Power menu, I'd also see this as a strong argument to remove it, but others in this thread have said it avoids using pronouns at all.
This is a smaller point, but another important difference between a case like Noelle and Ralsei is that Noelle has lots and lots of uses of she/her after that piece of Lancer dialogue, whereas there are a few uses of he/him for Ralsei further in the chapter, but the they/them usage is one of the last pieces of text refering to Ralsei in the chapter.
I've been told by the wiki admins not to remove it, when I asked.
Just so I'm not taken out of context, I have no real opinion on this discourse as much as I want the pages to be as accurate and consistent as possible.