Ralsei "Princess" Alias

Wiki Discussion
21

I would avoid factoring in a collective nickname when sorting out individual nicknames.

That's what I'm saying, since it is being collectively used, it shouldn't be applied as a nickname. The example is to show that Flowery isn't using it as a nickname, he just is kind of collectively throwing it out at the party in general/using it casually and not to identify any one of them, like a nickname would.

Besides, saying he carried Kris "like a princess" isn't the same literally calling them "princess". This isn't what the Also known as section of the infobox is about.

I believe you're agreeing with Psycho. They were using that scene as further evidence of Flowery just throwing the word around. It's to build a clear picture of a pattern of it not being a suitable nickname, and shouldn't be in any infobox.

22

No... It's not the "exact verbal tic". It's the same word, but it's being used in a different way. In every other instance, he is literally replacing someone's name in a sentence.

Don't worry, Princess.

... instead of...

Don't worry, Susie.

This is not the same thing as saying:

Thought I heard some princesses in distress.

And carried you here... gently, like princesses.

You can't just replace "princesses" here with someone's name, or even with "Fun Gang", because "princesses" in these two sentences aren't nicknames.

23

"Don't worry, darling." "I thought I heard some darlings in distress."

A verbal tic can be used where a nickname would be used, yes, but a nickname can't be used where a verbal tic. Kind of one of those "All A are B, but not all B are A" situations.

Similarly, look how Queen talks.

"Oh Noelle Sweetie"
"Oh Hello Susie Sweetie"
" Of Course Susie Sweetie"

It isn't a nickname, even in those instances.

Even then, this is a moot conversation, because again, by the very guidelines set in https://deltarune.wiki/w/Template:Infobox_character , Princess doesn't qualify as a nickname for Ralsei. It should be removed to be consistent with these guidelines and rules.

24

"Sweetie" isn't a nickname because it doesn't replace the character's name. You can tell because the names are right there. If you can't replace the word for the character's name in the sentence, the word isn't being used as a nickname.

This is different from...

Got it, Princess?
Don't worry, Princess.
I... I'm fine, princess... I just need... a little water.
On the house, Princess.
Go get em, princess.

In each of these, "princess" is being used as a nickname. You can tell because you can replace the word "princess" for the character's name without changing the meaning of the sentence:

Got it, Ralsei?
Don't worry, Susie.
I... I'm fine, Susie... I just need... a little water.
On the house, Susie.
Go get em, Susie.

But it does for Susie.

25

But it does for Susie.

This isn't the discussion for Susie though, this is the discussion for Ralsei. There's merit under the guidelines for it to possibly be a nickname for Susie, and that's a discussion that could be had in the appropriate place. You'll see the quote you replied to I said "Princess doesn't qualify as a nickname for Ralsei." I didn't comment either way on Susie, as I was trying to stay on topic. I hadn't noticed you had shifted focus to Susie, and if that was part of the confusion, I apologize.

26

This isn't an isolated issue. You were trying to establish that Flowery calling people "princess" doesn't count for the infobox on the basis of it being a "verbal tick". This would unavoidably disqualify it as an alias for Susie as well.

I was arguing against your "verbal tick" argument, not your conclusion.

27

Hello again, seeing a lot of people bring up the template and... do some of you think that scene is a gag? In my original explanation reply I called it important and pointed out the Actual Game does this as well. If the template said "note-worthy and frequent" or "no one-offs" in a more general sense then maybe you'd have a point but it doesn't. The qualifier is being noteworthy, and given it has a whole scene and multiple followup scenes, it pretty unambiguously is. Noteworthy and important are synonyms, so by the game's literal admission it is Noteworthy.

On the topic of WP:INN I get why you'd say this, but this wiki isn't base level Wikipedia, its its own website with its own logic and rules, and while most of it is meant to align with Wikipedia some of it is not. We break rules all the time here with abundant citations for certain elements that need emphasis. I do not see how including something not because of its frequency but notability is that much of a stretch. Also, on the subject of calling Kris princess... the only reason we know he's talking to Susie AND Ralsei when saying the phrase is because they both have isolated incidents (with again Ralsei having the more (textually stated) important one).

28

Noteworthy and important are synonyms, so by the game's literal admission it is Noteworthy.

The argument is that it isn't noteworthy or important because he uses the name for other characters, and primary for a DIFFERENT character, than Ralsei. In his documented 7 times using it, only once is is directed at Ralsei, 5 times it is directed at Susie. It isn't a special nickname for Ralsei.

There is an argument to be made to add it to Susie, but as the template rules are written, it doesn't meat the criteria for Ralsei.

We don't need multiple nicknames from a single character either. Flowery already calls him Raly and that is undeniably a nickname. Lancer is on Ralsei's list twice, but only because he and Queen call him the same thing and Lancer is listed as backup for Queen's usage.

29

This isn't an isolated issue. You were trying to establish that Flowery calling people "princess" doesn't count for the infobox on the basis of it being a "verbal tick". This would unavoidably disqualify it as an alias for Susie as well.

I was arguing against your "verbal tick" argument, not your conclusion.

That's fair. I do think the argument stands, but this isn't the place for it and I'd rather keep this focused on Ralsei. I appreciate your clarification.

30

I don't think you read what I said, but I'll elaborate. The "got it, princess" scene is deliberately labeled as important. When you're given the option to close eyes and imagine what ralsei is doing, if you choose not to, you are then prompted to a SECOND time, clarifying it's important. I'm saying because the game considers it important so should we. This is pretty uncontestable evidence it should stay. It is stated in game directly to be important, and therein noteworthy.

31

I don't think you read what I said

I did. I just didn't agree.

The "got it, princess" scene is deliberately labeled as important. When you're given the option to close eyes and imagine what ralsei is doing, if you choose not to, you are then prompted to a SECOND time, clarifying it's important.

You can argue it makes the SCENE important, but not the name. The focus of this discussion is on the name. The focus of the scene is not the name. He uses it in this scene as a sign-off, like he does with Susie when he's dying. This isn't evidence to your case.

This is pretty uncontestable evidence it should stay.

It isn't the evidence you think it is. This is your personal opinion. Opinion doesn't dictate what we add - the guidelines do. The guidelines are pretty clear.

All 5 scenes where Flowery calls Susie princess can't be skipped. Every scene where Lancer calls everyone Losers can't be skipped. The scenes are important - the names are not.

It is stated in game directly to be important

No, it isn't. The game never directly says "This is important."

Please don't twist the dialogue of the game to try and make a case.

32

"Don't even if it seems important" are you suggesting this line is a red herring and the game actually thinks its not important? A scene that has its ideas (ralsei's constant pleading to a prophecy thats bound to cause him harm and the way it stunts his ability to express himself) referenced in multiple penultimate scenes of the character's finale?

Also I'm a little confused on the hostility here? I don't see why you're so passionate about the specific phrasing when I feel it's pretty concrete. The implication is that you believe I'm twisting the text so that it can fit my view, but I genuinely don't think that's the case. I think the game saying something seems important is saying that it is important.

33

Also I'm a little confused on the hostility here?

I'm not being hostile at all. If you're reading this as hostile, I apologize. That isn't my intent and I wanted to address that first. But let me try to explain.

are you suggesting this line is a red herring and the game actually thinks its not important?

No, the dialgoue is important. The NICKNAME is not. We've established with hard evidence, the script of the game itself, that he uses the name for 2 other people (Kris and Susie) and primarily uses it for Susie. It is not a nickname for Ralsei.

Again, look at the guideline.

image

It must be a name the character is known by (Ralsei is not "known by" Princess). The alias must be noteworth (ie: unique, special, and reflective of the character. It is not this as Flowery uses it for other characters and it is not used to refer to Ralsei specifically, like Raly is) and not one-off gags.

This is why Raly is a valid nickname but "princess" is not. Flowery uses "princesses" to refer to the fun gang in general.

I don't see why you're so passionate about the specific phrasing when I feel it's pretty concrete.

This will come across hostile but it isn't. It doesn't matter that you personally feel. It doesn't matter what I personally feel. The rules are guidelines and they are objective for a reason. That's why we write objective guidelines, because if we moderated just based purely on opinions, there would be no consistency across the wiki and it would just be a mess of theories and speculation.

The implication is that you believe I'm twisting the text so that it can fit my view

You are, because you've said the game directly says things are important. It does not. At no point in time does the game go "HEY, THIS IS IMPORTANT." That isn't how the game works.

I think the game saying something seems important is saying that it is important.

Again, that is your opinion and interpretation of the scene, but regardless of how you feel about it, it still fails to meet the requirements the wiki holds.

Princess is not a nickname for Ralsei. It can be argued to be a nickname for Susie. Raly is Flowery's nickname for Ralsei and he uses it consistently for Ralsei, and only for Ralsei.

referenced in multiple penultimate scenes of the character's finale?

It isn't. Again, Flowery literally only calls Ralsei princess once. He could have said "Got it, kiddo?" or "Got it, dude?" and the scene would have been exactly the same. Neither of those are nicknames either, and wouldn't apply had he said them. Now if he had said "Got it, Fuzzball?" that would have been a nickname because he only used it for Ralsei, and it clearly applies only to him and references a trait of his.

His final scene he calls Susie princess.

34

I already explained the bit with the example. It's not a one off gag and it's noteworthy. I'm explaining what I think to expand upon these elements but it's pretty clear that when Toby Fox writes in that a scene is important, it's probably important.

I don't really feel like replying to this thread further because its nearly 3 am in my time zone. I have already explained myself on everything you've said, and in some cases directly after what you've quoted me on. I am aware it is used on Susie more, but the game only puts emphasis on the phrase in one scene, and that's one with ralsei.

35

I'm sorry, but it heavily reads like you're biased here.
Truly, this is a one off line.
It's only significant if you were to believe trans ralsei, which is likely what everybody arguing for its addition believes.
If we were to eventually get trans ralsei, then this could probably be amended in retrospect.
But for now, it's a throwaway line with no significance.

36

It doesn't put emphasis on it, you're reading emphasis on it. That's what we're all trying to tell you. That's fine to attribute meaning to a scene you witness, and personal interpretations are valid. But they don't belong on a wiki. That's it. We have a guideline and it doesn't fit.

when Toby Fox writes in that a scene is important

You keep saying this. What he writes in every scene is important, but that doesn't make it a nickname. That's not the issue here. The dialogue is important. The scene is important. The "princess" is not. It cannot be a nickname for a character if the name is used for multiple characters, because it has to be a substitute for their name, referring to them, that they would be known by.

If someone said "I saw princess here" you wouldn't know who they were talking about since it could be several different characters. But if they said "I saw Toothpaste Boy here" or "I saw Raly here" you absolutely would.

37

Okay? I am biased. Frankly I don't think seeing this read as something biased and therefore worth throwing out is the right call because like... of course people would get that impression from the scene. Everyone mentions that he also calls Susie this but they never realize that he never calls Kris this. When you logic it out the obvious reason is, oh hey if we call Kris princess this will give people leeway to believe they're a girl, and we don't want that. To then use it deliberately and emphatically on Ralsei says something about the narrative and in a game with like 4 characters like this already it isn't a stretch to see that as the intention. So yeah, people who believe this want it on the wiki because it's important to them, but it's also, as I've said many times, important to the game.

38

Yes every line is important. I'm saying this one is particularly important.

Also, fluffy boy could be any fluffy boy within the dark world. This could be said about the rabbicks in chapter 1. You only can assume something is an alias because of the context, so a less specific one is still something that can be used to assume who's being referred to.

39

Flowery does compare Kris to a princess, see above.

40

Thats why I said calls, not compares.