that is also fair.
This is a good point. I think some of this evidence is noteworthy, but whether it goes under Personality or a new Gender section is something I'll have to get more opinions on.
And yet Ralsei is clearly excited when chosen as a princess, and seemingly disappointed when chosen as a prince. I think Otval brings a good point about Ralsei claiming that he does things for Lightners, only to later realize those were his own interests.
No, they aren't. Ralsei says "Turns out the other princesses they put up here, mostly left..." in the scene where Rouxls Kaard is present, meaning that the descriptor isn't referring to Rouxls Kaard. And even if this was the case, I don't see how it weakens the fact that Ralsei was excited about being chosen as a princess here.
...what? Ralsei's page over there barely had any edits for there to be "edit wars [...] for months". Besides, we've already had edit wars here, and we've already dealt with edit wars, so I don't think that should be any metric to go by when making this decision.
What does the Tralsei theory have to do with anything? Please stay on topic.
Entirely untrue, they are saved in flag 1441, line 1994 of your save file. I just tested it in-game.
I wrote a topic going over what I believe to be the significant amount of evidence for Ralsei being in love with Kris and was likewise told to not add it due to it not being fully confirmed, even with Ralsei given a wholly unique sprite for a scene with incredibly obvious, borderline (but emphasis on borderline, that's the key word!) undeniable romantic undertones. Many things discussed regarding gender identity here are even more conjectural than anything I covered in that topic. Basically looks like a section being added entirely because Ralsei dressed up like a princess and referred to himself as such, and then launches itself entirely as if it's exploration of his gender and not:
- A joke (especially given potentially bigoted dialogue choices!)
- A moment regarding Ralsei's willingness to indulge himself, which isn't gender-exclusive
- A one-off scene that will have zero impact on the plot in the future--note that Toby Fox has complained about important character scenes being missable on his 10 Year Anniversary stream.
Additionally, this goes over redundant topics as seen in the Ralsei pronouns talk page: Flowery calls everyone princesses, not just Ralsei, and the Dark Vine singular they is a bit dubious even if it's ultimately listed on the page, as multiple other characters are referred to with singular they, along with the game consistently referring to Ralsei as male afterward, him even still using male pronouns in Japanese. This drafted section is also hyperfocused on Chapter 5 when other chapters do have Ralsei talk about his body, with Chapter 3 having a scene where Ralsei says "If there's anything I like about myself, it's this..." (when told his face is "unique".)
Ultimately I'm not convinced any of these scenes are about gender identity in the first place, and even then, the fact that I can argue against it means there's not explicit confirmation and therefore not a reason to add this to the article. At most, Ralsei's feminine behaviors deserve mention in his Personality section, not under the context of unconfirmed gender identity, but more in terms of just who he is and how he behaves.
And yet Ralsei is clearly excited when chosen as a princess, and seemingly disappointed when chosen as a prince. I think Otval brings a good point about Ralsei claiming that he does things for Lightners, only to later realize those were his own interests.
"Seemingly disappointed" is a subjective read of the situation. He just seems to be a little embarrassed but is mostly fine with it. Both definitely feed into him wanting to do what the Lightner in question (Kris) wants him to do. He doesn't say he is disappointed, doesn't frown, or doesn't make any negative faces. I think there's no argument that he's more excited to try being Kris's Princess, for sure, but I think saying he's disappointed is a stretch and kind of a loaded word there. It is kind of putting words into the scene that aren't there.
...what? Ralsei's page over there barely had any edits for there to be "edit wars [...] for months"
I'll admit my word choice here was poor. It was mostly just infighting on the forums and the discord, and it wasn't pleasant. The actual wiki itself was mostly isolated from it all (and was locked for awhile IIRC?). The way I had worded it was incorrect and I appreciate the correction. I agree it shouldn't be a metric for if we decide to do something or not on its own, but was meant to simply reinforce that it is a hot topic that is debated not from a place of bad faith or bias, but because the evidence is so open to interpretation that there are very valid reads to swing it either way.
Entirely untrue, they are saved in flag 1441, line 1994 of your save file. I just tested it in-game.
Just backing this up to confirm for anyone else coming through, they do seem to be saved. Whether it'll lead to anything, unsure, and Toby is pretty liberal with using flags and tags to just say a cutscene was seen and they don't always get called back, but it is good to note it does seem to be recorded. Seeing if Chapter 6 or 7 calls this back in a meaningful way would be interesting to see. Can you see if that same flag gets saved if Starwalker was recruited? I don't have a save readily available to check that atm.
No, they aren't. Ralsei says "Turns out the other princesses they put up here, mostly left..." in the scene where Rouxls Kaard is present, meaning that the descriptor isn't referring to Rouxls Kaard.
Well, no, that's still true. He said they MOSTLY left. Not all left. Rouxls is still there while the others aren't. The only other one still there with Ralsei, in fact, for that scene. And he does only say that if Starwalker isn't present. It definitely implies that Roulxs is included in that, and with the red cup at the bottom implying the whole thing is a princess training exercise (for Susise to save the Princess Noelle), it is a reasonable assumption that everyone at the top is meant to be at the very least a stand-in for a princess.
Ultimately I'm not convinced any of these scenes are about gender identity in the first place, and even then, the fact that I can argue against it means there's not explicit confirmation and therefore not a reason to add this to the article. At most, Ralsei's feminine behaviors deserve mention in his Personality section, not under the context of unconfirmed gender identity, but more in terms of just who he is and how he behaves.
You worded what I was trying to basically say better. Is some of it interesting? Yes. But we don't know where it is going and the evidence is just that - interesting.
My bad about the save file thing (I realized later it does get saved so that if you do the princess climb again, it'll show Ralsei either in the dress or in his regular outfit), but this boiling down to "Ralsei is still excited to be Kris's princess" is very tenuous at best. Everything else aside, this can fit both reads of his character (either as trans foreshadowing or him expressing his GNC identity in a figurative way), and I'd feel the fact him using feminine outfits in his ACTs prior to his characterization in Chapter 3 proves he's never actually had a specific problem with presenting himself femininely in the first place.
And like I've said, if you're going to add a gender section regardless, I think including the times he's also presented himself masculinely/in line with his current gender should also be done, especially because Ralsei being a subversion of RPG tropes through his demeanor and gender expression was a big part of what made the character compelling to people in the first place, back in the Chapter 1-2 days. (Obviously, still list these moments out in a chronological manner.)
I added a better description of Ralsei's agency in the princess dress scene and drink voucher scene to the main Personality section in the draft, and revamped the Gender section to be more neutral, have a description of Ralsei's outfits across the Chapters, and probably less focus on Chapter 5.
https://deltarune.wiki/w/User:AGoddessWhoMissesPeople/Ralsei
I think this is indeed more neutral, but I also can't help but think it's at odds with itself. It asserts constantly that Ralsei is male, goes over his appearance, then goes over aforementioned redundant topics before closing it off with wishy-washy sentiments.
On the note of the redundant topics, you mention a scene where Ralsei is called "Princess", which was actually discussed and, for a time, added to Ralsei's page as a title. Ultimately, it was deemed flimsy given Flowery refers to everyone as princesses in scenes before and after the cited scene, that there's now an editor's note on Ralsei's page saying to not add it as a title, at least until the topic is revisited.
The inclusion of "Princess" as an alias is currently being deliberated on in the Discussions part of the wiki. Please do not add it while said discussion is going on. Thank you. [Note: said discussion was already linked by me.]
As for Ralsei dressing in feminine clothing, I don't think this requires an entire paragraph. Mettaton, the Dress Lion (who is seen in both masculine and feminine clothes), Blue, and even Toby Fox himself all point to the fact that anyone can wear dresses regardless of gender identity or expression. This basically just leaves the singular they, which as I mentioned, you then proceed to seemingly point out is not a particularly big deal as Ralsei is still addressed as he/him onward, hence my claim of wishy-washy sentiment.
Again, it seems like something that I think is largely best handled in the personality section. You've made notable improvements, but there's not a lot to actually work off of here for gender identity; as previously mentioned, it just looks like Ralsei wore a dress and now we're giving this cute scene a reading which has yet to receive any confirmation. This wiki doesn't even go over extremely popular theories like Dess Knight or Gaster in the plot for similar reasons: lack of confirmation.
Minor nitpick, but as an Ace Attorney fan, it should be worth noting that the reason why he cosplays Trucy Wright or Maya Fey is likely to do with the fact that both characters are heavily associated with different kinds of magic, like stage magic (Trucy Wright) or spiritual power (Maya Fey).
For context, spiritual power in Ace Attorney is very matriarchal, and I guess you could argue that Ralsei could've been portrayed as a Gramarye instead, but literally all of them ended up either dead or as antagonists, and Trucy's a main character.
Piggybacking off of this, while Ralsei dresses as Trucy, Susie dresses as Gumshoe. They both are technically crossdressing for this one, and it's kind of just hammering home the theme of "Masculine Girl, Feminine Boy."