Ralsei and a Gender subheading for his page

Wiki Discussion
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1

As the dust settles for Chapter 5's release, there's been a lot of discussion around Ralsei's gender as a result of a particular few scenes. I learned that we have a gender subheading that is sometimes used for characters whose gender is considered notable as an aspect of their character, or might be unclear to a reader otherwise.

So I'm creating this post to ask the community if a gender section on Ralsei's page would be a helpful or appropriate addition! Feel free to leave any insights you might have

2

i think a gender section for ralsei would be great! enough substance at this point to have a good amount of detail without getting into speculation, i feel.

not my idea, but people liked it in the discord so im gonna port it over here: rather than having a gender section, we could have an identity section. ralsei's struggles with identity are a huge part of their character and go beyond gender, so that section could cover a lot more.

(we WOULD include stuff on their gender in this hypothetical identity section. doing an identity section instead of a gender section should not be a way of dodging out of writing about ralsei's gender.)

3

either section works fine but i think the problem people will have is maintaining neutrality.

4

this is a big concern, but ultimately i never want to make a call based on whether or not people will be neutral. if it's useful and true, we should include it. if it's controversial, we just have to monitor it.

5

A Gender section may be a useful addition if written without speculation, but I'm curious what you are considering as an Identity section. The current state of the article includes some amount of information which can be considered to be about identity (without gender-related information), and cites most of the identity-related dialogue Ralsei has. It can form an okay Identity section by just adding the subheader, so I'm curious about how you want to rewrite it to be more about Ralsei's identity.

6

I am all for having an identity section on the Ralsei page

7

Same, I feel we will get less arguments about ralsei’s pronouns with a gender section

8

Overall, I think that an Identity section is not the best choice for Ralsei's article. Identity as a term is vague, and almost the whole unique Ralsei's personality can be considered being identity. There is also an overlap between Identity and Interests sections, and Interests is more widespread on the wiki and should be kept for consistency.

Ralsei's struggle is more about self-determination rather than identity. Already in the beginning of Chapter 1, Ralsei establishes core parts of his identity that the game later builds upon. He already presents in a feminine way, shows a like for affection and hugs, signs and bakes cakes. However, his desire to express his individuality and act for himself clashes with his initial view on what a good Darkner should too - serve Lightners, or as Ralsei puts it, make them happy. Ralsei still serves them in an very individual way, despite not acknowledging it. Ralsei initially refuses in Chapter 4 to acknowledge that he has his own interests, but exactly the activities he claims he does to serve Lightners later turn out to be his own interests. For example, Ralsei signs in Chapter 1 and mentions signing as a part of activities he does to serve Kris and Susie. In Chapter 5, he directly recognizes that he likes his own voice, establishing signing as his own interest that he wants to do for himself, something he considered being "selfish" before.

Therefore, I think that Ralsei's struggle is not about building his own identity. He already had it in Chapter 1. Ralsei's struggle is about embracing it, and allowing himself to act "selfish". Ralsei says that he is developing his own opinions, likes, dislikes, desires, and fears only in Chapter 4, but actually shows them way earlier - in Chapter 4 he just recognizes something he always had and wanted to repress before - his selfish wishes, opinions and desires.

Half of Ralsei's current Personality section is already about what I described here, mostly because I wrote it. It also mentions the princess dress scene as a part of Ralsei exploring new things, in order to extend his existing identity. As Ralsei himself says in that scene, "But, it's fun to try new things, isn't it...?". Connections between Ralsei's arc and gender can be placed in a separate Gender section, as established by other pages, instead of dividing core personality traits with a vague subheader.

9

It seems like a decently popular idea to have a gender section for Ralsei regardless of the form taken here. Thanks for the feedback, I'll begin working on a draft.

10

Ok

11

Hey all, I've gotten to drafting the section. You can read it at the namespace here, or just peruse the snippet. https://deltarune.wiki/w/User:AGoddessWhoMissesPeople/Ralsei#Gender

I'm also still open to people who feel the gender section may not be necessary.

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12

Thanks to everyone who helped to refine this, there was a lot of people who both edited and provided advice to trim things down.

13

I and SomethingAccurate37 did some adjustments to the section.

Ralsei Gender section draft
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14

This is just my opinion; if admins end up thinking this is a good section to add, then it should be added, but looking at the drafts, I worry it may be giving undue weight to specific scenes that may not actually be as important as some theorize they are. Even though it doesn't straight-up say it, any variant of this type of draft will be implying something about Ralsei's gender through three evidence points (Flowery princess, Castle Town princess, Dark Vine), and those alone, when we do not yet have confirmation that these scenes are very notable to his identity. In my opinion, this is a topic that should be treated with "wait and see" for later Chapters; currently, we just don't have enough evidence to decide if those three specific cited things are important or not, and if they end up being unimportant for his gender and preferred pronouns, we had misleading info on the wiki for a year. But again, I'm just some random user, feel free to keep expanding and then asking admins about it.

Also, outside of if the section should be included or not, I believe the Original Starwalker skipping Ralsei's "princess" Castle Town dialogue would be notable context to add if the section is decided to be worthy of adding.

15

It's notable that in the scene, the word "Princess" is used very loosely and is stated by Ralsei himself that he only sees it as a difference in expression, implying it's not necessarily about identity. Furthermore, Roulxs Kaard and Starwalker are also implicitly referred to as princesses here, which is why I don't want to risk giving certain scenes like this one an undue amount of significance.

16

Furthermore, if we're going to include a gender section, I believe it's worth noting instances of him expressing other facets of his gender identity and expression too, like the Rockerboy costume/scene, the Butler outfit, him liking his face and voice,his earlier characterization establishing his "Fluffy Boy" persona and his subversion of regular guide/healer RPG tropes through this archetype, etc. If details from the Japanese localization are directly permitted in the Wiki text, also include his consistent use of boku after his introduction scene in Chapter 1, and the variation of the Dark Vine line, so readers have a more complete picture about where his stated identity and expression stands as of now.

Although, personally, I don't really agree with adding a gender section in the first place, because a lot of points about Ralsei's gender are heavily in dispute as to whether or not they're even trying to convey details about Ralsei's gender expression or identity in the first place, and I fear this will just start more arguments.

17

I really think the community is WAY jumping the gun on this. It's a single, vague syntax use of they that seems to be gender agnostic as opposed to gender neutral, that is only present in one title, and only in one version of the scripts that Toby oversees. I'm heavily against adding much weight to it in a wiki until we have more sources. I think we all need to pump the brakes just a bit and wait to see what Chapter 6 brings, to get some context. Measure twice, cut once sort of situation.

A wiki should, to the best of its ability, be objective over what is in the game and be able to be consistently backed up with the text, and lean as little into interpretation as possible. If Chapter 6 continues the usage of "their" then I think we might have room to move on this, but as it stands right now it really feels like hyperfocusing on a few very specific scenes that seem in line with Ralsei's current character when taken in context of the rest of the game, and only seem to have weight when removed from that context.

I also don't think we should add gender as a section, I think the pronouns are enough on their own right now. A gender section was added to the other wiki (the Fandom one) and it caused edit wars and vandalism for months. The fact is we don't know anyone's gender in the game really, just their pronouns and how they're perceived. We've been fine for over 8 years without it, adding it now seems like just inviting more infighting in the community.

I'm reminded a bit of the "Noelle is a man" mishap/confusion and while I don't think this is as big as that, waiting for confirmation hurts no one. Jumping the gun with too much bias and interpreation, however, does. There's literally no rush on this. Patience is a virtue.

I would also like to point out the princess scene seems to be taken a bit out of context. Ralsei is explicitly excited to be Kris's Princess. Not just a princess in General. That is a distinction that matters, since it more strongly implies Ralsei is doing things for Kris than for himself (a running theme in the game and this chapter especially)

* Turns out the other princesses they put up here, mostly left...

* But, I can be your princess, Kris! If you want me to be!

(IF YES)

* Really!? Oh, I'm so excited!

* I've been a prince for a while, but I haven't been a princess yet.

* I suppose the only difference is how you present yourself...

* But, it's fun to try new things, isn't it...?

* ... as long as it's... what other people want, of course!

(I can write rather bluntly, so this isn't an attack or a means to shut down an idea, I think you have very good intent, but the section HEAVILY implies that Ralsei's gender is shifting as a confirmed thing, such as it "starts out" with it only being one way. If that is the way it ends up going, GREAT! 100% behind it then, but I think waiting just a bit to see if this is going anywhere with Chapter 6 is just the wiser decision. I know we're all excited to get any scraps of new info, I get it, I'm hyped too, but this genuinely feels interpretive, and not objective, and I'd be against that on any page on this wiki. I do think Ralsei, personally, has some really interesting gender expression and I think it is fun to talk about and explore, but it feels way more in the theory/speculative/subjective reading camp than a wiki section, IMHO).

18

I think the big issue here is "true" - there's what can be cited in the text, and then how people read the text. Ralsei's gender and identity is very, very hotly contested across multiple spaces right now, with a lot of (candidly, valid) reads on how it is going. This section would have to, by definition, lend itself to one of those readings. None of those readings can currently be stated as more valid than the others with the evidence and sources we have now. Chapter 6 might change that, but I feel until we have that, the section would have to rely on speculation. There's already a lot of (unintentionally, I'm sure, no one is trying to push anything here, I 100% believe everyone here is in good faith) rather loaded and leading language in the sample/draft already presented that lends itself to one way to read the character that the text doesn't explicitly support. Some may argue that it does explicitly support it, but everyone is reading it differently. It isn't objectively like saying "Ralsei is called a fluffy boy" - which we can cite the actual line where it says that. But if I were to write "Ralsei identifies as a fluffy boy" that isn't what the text says. Ralsei never calls himself that, and we don't know how he feels about it specifically because it's said in text he can't see and never reacts to. That would be me putting my own spin on it.

And that's a problem in a wiki.

19

Gender sections for characters already exist, namely for Kris, Seth and Seam, so it's not something added only for Ralsei. As for the quote, it can really go both ways.

20

In my opinion, no not really, when other examples of princesses in the same scene include Roulxs Karrd and Starwalker, there's also the fact Ralsei says he's more used to being a prince in one dialog branch, and the several other qualifiers in the scene that explicitly distinguish Ralsei's motivation from one strictly about gender identity, moreso just expression, like him explicitly saying "I suppose the only difference is how you present yourself/call yourself".