This is wrong
He just breaks the rules of the game
Sure, he doesn't bypass i-frames in the pacifist 10th anniversary fight, but then, he doesn't want to hurt Frisk, so instead of doing rapid damage, he makes his attacks solid, which is also not a very within the rules thing to do
Flowey fought everyone and said that Sans is stronger than nearly them all
I know. But Karma is based on sins, Sans said LV1 Frisk isn't completely innocent thus not sinless. We can't quantify what's the minimum damage Sans does on LV1 for KARMA cuz there's nothing to suggest that thus via Occam's Razor it's easier to accept that KARMA will be weaker but will still be strong enough to give nearly as hard time as to LV19 Frisk and Flowey
Karma and i-frames are separated mechanics in the game files, thus via Occam's Razor it's less hypothetical to accept that they're seperated powers considering that Sans can break other game mechanics
Karma is Sans' ability. Frisk doesn't have KR sign against Flowey on LV19, Asgore on LV20, and neutral Asgore on LV19
And you can do LV17 neutral (which is pretty sinful) and no other monster would grant Frisk purple damage, although Sans judges us as a terrible person
I understood. But Sans actually uses Karma to hurt Frisk. We don't know how sinless LV1 Frisk is, we just know that LV1 Frisk isn't innocent according to Sans. You can't quantify if it'll be 1 damage from Karma, 2 damage from Karma, the game never states the minimum damage Frisk can receive
the only problem I'm having here is that you keep throwing the word "Karma" around like it's just a game mechanic only appearing in Undertale when sans uses it and absolutely nowhere else
you keep saying that "we don't know what the upper and lower limits of Karma damage is because it never happens in the game" but DUDE
KARMA
DOES NOT
BELONG
TO SANS
Karma is so effective on lv19 Frisk because they have RAVAGED the monster population, so in retribution, Karma ravages them to the same degree. If Frisk had only killed, for instance, a Whimsun and a Moldsmal, then Karma would never have the same level of damage as in genocide, since Frisk committed nowhere NEAR the amount of atrocities throughout the Underground.
I don't think I'm gonna continue arguing a lot, but I'm wondering why do you think Karma doesn't belong to Sans? In the game, it's shown that only Sans can use it, LV19 Frisk doesn't have KR sign against Flowey and Asgore, LV20 Frisk doesn't have KR sign against Asgore too
Sans also activates KR as an actual ability after his 1st attack
Another thing is that Flowey has fought Sans before and implied he was dangerous. You might say that well Flowey was probably at LV19, but Flowey is smart (knows nearly everything in the game) and isn't restricted by game mechanics, he could just understand Sans draws power from his sins, reset the world and progress to LV1, and then kill Sans first on his new Genocide Route
Base Flowey should have at least 255DEF/255HP, as he survived an attack from Toriel, same attack blew away Asgore thus it's superior to LV17 Frisk, and Asgore defeated Flowey thus withstood Flowey's damage, Flowey was able to kill Box MTT who had 255DEF thus Flowey was dealing 255 damage (Asgore is ahead of his prime during Frisk's invasion which is why he has 80 stats, and if a monster doesn't wanna fight their stats are weaker as proven with Neutral Route Papyrus, he's also implied to be holding back and mentally nerfed)
So in order for Sans to give LV1 Flowey a hard time with 255DEF/255HP, his Karma should've worked on LV1 Flowey
what? the heck? do you mean? what is this? what are you on?
we don't know how much damage that attack actually does
it could be like Blasto in Dragon Quest, which literally just yeets the target out of the battle without doing any damage
Flowey doesn't have a SOUL
Flowey doesn't have LV
Okay. So.
What
Have I
Been saying
This WHOLE TIME?!
Even without Karma, sans, with his ability to ignore the rules, will absolutely still put up a good fight if somebody tries to kill him. And "FIRST"?! Flowey is just DEAD at that point!
Oh, well I guess I proved the point of this topic (I just slightly went to prove why I think Sans is the strongest after prime Asgore and Amalgamates, mb). Sans can also stop time as shown in Grillby's Bar and Papyrus mentioning it
OK, yes. Just to be clear, though, saying he's the "strongest" is misleading, since he is still the most physically weak monster. He's the most skilled, he has the most overpowered gimmick, but he's not strong. The best way to state it would be that he's the most powerful, since even without any physical strength, he has more than enough skill and gimmicky overpoweredness to make up for it.
YES, FINALLY
SKILLED ≠ STRONG
here to bring my own two centz into the ring…
zanz iz not that powerful by himzelf, and could have never held out the battle on hiz own, but hiz DETERMINATION to defeat uz kept him fighting far longer than he could do alone
Sans doesn't have determination though, or else he'd be melting
that’z why he didn’t crumble before he walked offzcreen, he melted there
The game directly states "the weakest enemy." When Sans is checked, that's why.