Who do you think is the Knight? (No Papyrus Knight allowed)

Gaster plays both sides. Based on what he says in the leadup to Chapter 2, to 3+4, and the end of 4, us inhabiting Kris instead of the vessel is not a deviation from plan. He carries on, as if it was intended the whole time… because it was.

Also, the shelter, which we now KNOW is the Knight’s hideout, is linked to Gaster (666% speed is mus_smile)

FRIEND is also linked to the Tail of Hell, and as Device Theory demonstrates, captial letter file names are named by Gaster, so FRIEND is someone Gaster considers a friend.

Entry 17 demonstrates Gaster was creating darkness. Archives of Deltarune.com show Ralsei’s version of the prophecy in Wingdings, and the prophecy being told across time and space implies Gaster made the prophecy. Which, by the way, includes “cage with human soul and parts”, referring to Kris getting possessed by us. We’re already being played by Gaster. So Gaster working with both the Knight and us at the same time is way more reasonable than it might look at first glance.

Okay, here is the megapost, in response to each bullet point.

  • The bat is a symbolic reminder of Dess, and I don't suppose it necessarily needs to be a physical object. (The unused animation for it consists of the Knight conjuring it with both of their hands.) It's also possible that it's a baseball bat, and not the wiffle bat that Dess has in her room. We know dess has one because she is holding one in one of her photos.
  • It doesn't look much like a katana at all. Instead of a handguard, it retains the knob of the original bat form, and the blade is completely different from that of a katana.
  • There's a difference between using Noelle's theme liberally throughout the game to evoke a certain feeling, and using the actual motif in a different track.
  • This just doesn't seem true at all? 1225 originated from the calendar in Noelle's mansion room, indicating that she was searching online for December Holiday. (Technically untrue since it originated back in 2018 as an easter egg in man.ogg, but this only solidifies the connection between Dess and gacharoom_unknown through the common Yume Nikki reference.) While it is definitely probable that Carol set up the 1225 code, it's very common for parents to use children's birthdates as passwords. Same reasoning would probably apply here for 1225.
  • I guess she could have secretly followed us? But Susie closes the church door right behind her, and the Knight is moments later found waiting for us at the Fountain. I don't find it very likely that the Knight promptly opened the door after us, jumped in, and flew above our heads. It's not impossible, but the scene could've been written differently to make the Knight sneaking in after us a lot more believable.
  • I never suggested that the Knight was doing it for the code. I'm just saying that the elaborate plot to kidnap Undyne would not have been neccessary if Carol could've simply asked her to come to the shelter and then locked her inside.
  • Just because Carol is the last person seen with Dess's guitar doesn't mean that the guitar symbolism refers to Carol instead of Dess. The secret was intended specifically for dataminers, so we know that it is a hint and not an indicator that the Knight is physically holding the guitar.

You say that, and said leitmotif was going to be in a scrapped sneaking theme, another completely separate track.

Okay but why would he do that for the Knight? Like, the difference in the level of stakes is absurd.

The sneaking theme also shares a motif with the trumpet in Raise Up Your Bat and the Mike themes. No idea what the relation between those things are.

Speaking of Stealth.ogg, GOD DANG Toby cooked with that.

The bat is a symbolic reminder of Dess, and I don't suppose it necessarily needs to be a physical object. (The unused animation for it consists of the Knight conjuring it with both of their hands.) It's also possible that it's a baseball bat, and not the wiffle bat that Dess has in her room. We know dess has one because she is holding one in one of her photos.

Olay, so I guess it’s a wash now. Maybe it’s Dess’ baseball bat, maybe it’s Carol, and could be anyone since it was manifested.

There's a difference between using Noelle's theme liberally throughout the game to evoke a certain feeling, and using the actual motif in a different track.

If anything this means Noelle is the Knight then. Because it’s Noelle’s theme.

This just doesn't seem true at all? 1225 originated from the calendar in Noelle's mansion room, indicating that she was searching online for December Holiday. (Technically untrue since it originated back in 2018 as an easter egg in man.ogg, but this only solidifies the connection between Dess and gacharoom_unknown through the common Yume Nikki reference.) While it is definitely probable that Carol set up the 1225 code, it's very common for parents to use children's birthdates as passwords. Same reasoning would probably apply here for 1225.

No, 1225 originated in the Spamton Sweepstakes, and Noelle’s blog name is Holidarygirl1225. Yes, the blog belongs to Noelle, not Dess. “December Holiday” is December 25, but the actual number, 1225 itself, comes from Holidaygirl. Noelle. But since it’s also sometimes used for Dess too, that implies 1225 is for the Holiday family as a whole, not just Dess. Which means “1225” does not imply “Dess”, it only implies “Holiday”. Or are you going to try to argue that Dess is the one that made all those blog posts? If you are, I’d really like to see your case for that.

I guess she could have secretly followed us? But Susie closes the church door right behind her,

Yes, but did she LOCK the door?

and the Knight is moments later found waiting for us at the Fountain.

We know the Knight is really, REALLY fast in the Dark World and can literally fly in there as a bird (See End of Chapter 3). Carol probably did THAT.

I don't find it very likely that the Knight promptly opened the door after us, jumped in, and flew above our heads. It's not impossible, but the scene could've been written differently to make the Knight sneaking in after us a lot more believable.

If that’s not believable, what about what happened to us at the very start of Chapter 1 in the closet with the door closing on us without us seeing who did it, with nobody in the school who looked like they could have it, who was probably the Knight who, again, we didn’t see? I find that equally unbelievable, but we literally experience just that.

I never suggested that the Knight was doing it for the code. I'm just saying that the elaborate plot to kidnap Undyne would not have been neccessary if Carol could've simply asked her to come to the shelter and then locked her inside.

That’s too slow, we’d be able to get to the bunker before Undyne then. And we’d get to watch Undyne put in her code.

Just because Carol is the last person seen with Dess's guitar doesn't mean that the guitar symbolism refers to Carol instead of Dess. The secret was intended specifically for dataminers, so we know that it is a hint and not an indicator that the Knight is physically holding the guitar.

…I took it as an indicator the Knight was physically holding the guitar, since it’s the only thing I’d imagine would actually be hard evidence since people’ve tried using it to prove Dess Knight. If they’re not, then this evidence is worthless. How do we even know it’s the Knight now? Maybe this is just another gachapon easter egg. No, whoever is blocking us physically had the guitar, or it was just a sound similar to it so Toby used that sound effect and it means nothing.

Also, can you explain how in the world Dess Knight gets around the case I made which I believe makes it physically impossible to happen? You thought Carol coming to church was infeasible, but apparently pretending to be missing for years without getting seen once, abadoning your family for basically no reason for years and randomly deciding to open fountains and putting your sister you cared for so much in mortal danger is more believable? Come on!

If anything this means Noelle is the Knight then. Because it’s Noelle’s theme.

Noelle obviously isn't the Knight. Lost Girl can very easily also be Dess's theme. See findher.ogg, see "Lost Girl also refers to a girl who is literally lost".

No, 1225 originated in the Spamton Sweepstakes, and Noelle’s blog name is Holidarygirl1225 . Yes, the blog belongs to Noelle, not Dess. “December Holiday” is December 25, but the actual number, 1225 itself, comes from Holidaygirl. Noelle. But since it’s also sometimes used for Dess too, that implies 1225 is for the Holiday family as a whole, not just Dess . Which means “1225” does not imply “Dess”, it only implies “Holiday”. Or are you going to try to argue that Dess is the one that made all those blog posts? If you are, I’d really like to see your case for that.

It didn't originate in the Sweepstakes. man.ogg is detuned 1225 cents from Waltz of Seccom Masada, Noelle's wristwatch is stuck near half past noon (near 12:30, i.e. 12:25), her calendar is on December with every day as the 25th (December Holiday, or 12/25 MDY format). I never once tried to imply that Dess is the one making the blogs and I don't appreciate that pointed remark. Noelle can be fond of her sister and have that as her username.

We know that the Knight is really, REALLY fast in the Dark World and can literally fly in there as a bird (See End of Chapter 3). Carol probably did THAT.

Sure. I guess you could take the fact that Susie didn't initially notice the Knight until the red wind started pushing her back as a signal that they had just arrived.

If that’s not believable, what about what happened to us at the very start of Chapter 1 in the closet with the door closing on us without us seeing who did it, with nobody in the school who looked like they could have it, who was probably the Knight who, again, we didn’t see? I find that equally unbelievable, but we literally experience just that.

They don't actually jump in with us. They just shut the door and leave.

That’s too slow, we’d be able to get to the bunker before Undyne then. And we’d get to watch Undyne put in her code.

I don't mean literally during the chase sequence? I mean Carol could've done that much sooner and without the TV World fountain being opened at all. If Carol already knows all the codes then she wouldn't even need to watch Undyne put it in anyway.

…I took it as an indicator the Knight was physically holding the guitar, since it’s the only thing I’d imagine would actually be hard evidence since people’ve tried using it to prove Dess Knight. If they’re not, then this evidence is worthless. How do we even know it’s the Knight now? Maybe this is just another gachapon easter egg. No, whoever is blocking us physically had the guitar, or it was just a sound similar to it so Toby used that sound effect and it means nothing.

I don't understand how the guitar HAS to be a physical object in their possession or else it means nothing. The guitar has been symbolically tied to Dess since sweepstakes, and the reason the guitar is so important is because it belonged to HER - not Carol. If I were defending Carol Knight I would much rather argue that it symbolizes Carol refusing to let go over the loss of her daughter, rather than "Carol was last seen with the guitar ego this proves Carol Knight."

And yes I mostly agree with you here. I think Dess Knight is kind of ridiculous and not something I want to happen very much because that would undersell the whole tragedy of her disappearance. But I think more mental gymnastics is required to line up the evidence we have currently with Carol then Dess. I also like the idea of it not literally being Dess, but some sort of amalgamate or light-darkner hybrid patterned after her.

It didn't originate in the Sweepstakes. man.ogg is detuned 1225 cents from Waltz of Seccom Masada, Noelle's wristwatch is stuck near half past noon (near 12:30, i.e. 12:25),

So more links between Noelle and 1225. See? It’s not just Dess.

her calendar is on December with every day as the 25th (December Holiday, or 12/25 MDY format). I never once tried to imply that Dess is the one making that blogs and I don't appreciate that pointed remark.

You implied 1225 is a Dess-especific thing, and that referencing 1225 means Dess specifically. Which can only be true if Dess was the one that made the blog.

Look, we have very clear evidence of 1225 being used in reference to something other than Dess. So can we stop claiming every single time we see 1225 we should go “Dess! Dess!” This seems like 2015/2016 Undertale fandom when we linked everything weird to W. D. Gaster.

Sure. I guess you could take the fact that Susie didn't initially notice the Knight until the red wind started pushing her back as a signal that they had just arrived.

Right.

They don't actually jump in with us. They just shut the door and leave.

They shut it right in front of us and Susie doesn’t recognize who it was? See, it’s easy to make it sound ridiculous.

If it’s jumping in after that’s the main issue with it being Carol, we have a whole room’s worth, and the Knight could have took a different path to reach the stairs, they probably moved north then east, rather than east than north like we do.

I don't mean literally during the chase sequence? I mean Carol could've done that much sooner and without the TV World fountain being opened at all?

And the Knight could’ve kidnapped Undyne way back in Chapter 1. So it seems there’s some reason why it had to happen on Friday specifically.

I don't understand how the guitar HAS to be a physical object in their possession or else it means nothing. The guitar has been symbolically tied to Dess since sweepstakes, and the reason the guitar is so important is because it belonged to HER - not Carol?? If I were defending Carol Knight I would much rather argue that it symbolizes Carol refusing to let go over the loss of her daughter, rather than "Carol was last seen with the guitar ego this proves Carol Knight."

The guitar belongs to Dess, yes. It’s characterizing what we know about Dess. That doesn’t mean everything vaguely linked to it is Dess. Again, this reminds me of “everything is Gaster” from 2015/2016…

It not literally being Dess but an amalgamate based on her, yes, that works. But let’s not call that Dess Knight. If the Knight is something else acting like a Dess clone, saying Dess is the Knight is just as wrong as saying the player is Kris.

I consider it in the same camp of Dess Knight because the reasoning to get there is pretty much identical, just without the comicalness of Dess turning evil and just hiding out scheming in Gasterland for however many years.

So more links between Noelle and 1225. See? It’s not just Dess.

The calendar is about Noelle's relation to Dess. I don't think 1225 is Noelle's number but it's associated with Noelle because Noelle deeply misses her sister. The gacha room or the man.ogg easter egg would be REALLY weird if it referred to Noelle, wouldn't it?

They shut it right in front of us and Susie doesn’t recognize who it was? See, it’s easy to make it sound ridiculous.

They shut it behind us. And to clarify I am not really stuck up about the entering after us thing, I think it's plausible. It's just a slight leap in logic over "she was waiting there the whole time like Susie implied".

The guitar belongs to Dess, yes. It’s characterizing what we know about Dess. That doesn’t mean everything vaguely linked to it is Dess. Again, this reminds me of “everything is Gaster” from 2015/2016…

I'm not sure how a deliberately hidden guitar sound easter egg is only vaguely linked to Dess. If it was snd_mysterygo, you wouldn't call it only vaguely linked to Gaster, would you?

The calendar is about Noelle's relation to Dess. I don't think 1225 is Noelle's number but it's associated with Noelle because Noelle deeply misses her sister. The gacha room or the man.ogg easter egg would be REALLY weird if it referred to Noelle, wouldn't it?

Well, yes, the gacha room refers to Dess. And 1225 in the blog refers to Noelle. This means 1225 is not specific to a particular character. So it probably just refers to the Holiday family itself. That’s why Noelle and Dess share it, they’re both Holidays, so they both share the number. It doesn’t “belong” to either of them specifically. It’s just the Holiday number.

They shut it behind us. And to clarify I am not really stuck up about the entering after us thing, I think it's plausible. It's just a slight leap in logic over "she was waiting there the whole time like Susie implied".

So, what piece of evidence do you think debunks Carol Knight so hard that Dess faking being missing fear years is less of a leap in logic? And what about Amalgam Knight?

I'm not sure how a deliberately hidden guitar sound easter egg is only vaguely linked to Dess. If it was snd_mysterygo, you wouldn't call it only vaguely linked to Gaster, would you?

It would only imply a link to Goners. Or something similar to them. (Believe or not THAT being Dess would be plausible since Dess’ fate might be similar to that of Goners) But even that is a stronger case than the guitar thing, because other characters can own guitars. Is Kris literally Chara Deltarune because they both really love chocolate and knives?

Disregarding the first point because I don't think I can explain it any better

So, what piece of evidence do you think debunks Carol Knight so hard that Dess faking being missing fear years is less of a leap in logic? And what about Amalgam Knight?

Probably everything that I've mentioned in the very first post put together. Yes, I think Dess doing that is kind of weird and stupid, but we don't have anything near the full picture yet. A lot of times you need to suspend your disbelief and work with solely what the game gives you in the present.

Amalgam Knight (or whatever revived, experimented on, effed-up Dess flavor you choose) would be more of a Claus parallel and would help explain why she turns evil in a much better way than her just faking it.

It would only imply a link to Goners. Or something similar to them. (Believe or not THAT being Dess would be plausible since Dess’ fate might be similar to that of Goners) But even that is a stronger case than the guitar thing, because other characters can own guitars . Is Kris literally Chara Deltarune because they both really love chocolate and knives?

It having a link to Goners is a HUGE step up from "Well anyone could own a guitar so it means nothing." And yes, I think the Kris-Chara connection is deliberate even though it doesn't literally imply they're the same.

we don't have anything near the full picture yet.

Gaster (or whoever the Voice is) himself even says that the "halfway point has been reached" or whatever.

Toby never a put any stake requirements. Simply that it can play when it pleases.

Besides, Mike is the one behind the scenes managing most of everything, which could include Raise up your Bat in the Physical Challenge. As for why the sneak theme has it, it’s a scrapped theme, so perhaps the original location it was supposed to play was scrapped too, similar to how Queen’s old theme was scrapped with scrapped old appearance.

I'm not saying that a stake requirement is something Toby would've had to invent; I mean that Toby just arbitrarily choosing to include a certain character's theme in a very climactic fight for an enemy whose identity is unknown is a recipe for disaster I don't see him making.

Probably everything that I've mentioned in the very first post put together. Yes, I think Dess doing that is kind of weird and stupid, but we don't have anything near the full picture yet. A lot of times you need to suspend your disbelief and work with solely what the game gives you in the present.

I’ve explained everything in there, though, and I don’t see a single piece of evidence that is stronger than “hey this person is LITERALLY MISSING AND PHYSICALLY CANNOT BE OPENING FOUNTAINS”.

I have an actual model. Dess Knight… doesn’t have a model (in the same way flat earth doesn’t have a model) They don’t even bother to acknowledge the existence of UNUSED because it is basically the strongest piece of evidence against Dess Knight, since that text is strongly implied to be Dess, and is nothing like the Knight. Spamton transmitting text from it also implies it’s happening at the same time as the chapters themselves, so it’s not even “Dess but way before she became the Knight”. It’s just Dess. The one who is missing. The one we need to find.

I don’t know what standards you’re using, but I’m using a Watsonian standard, sort of acting like a cross between a Deltarune scientist and a Deltarunian scholar looking at the prophecy. (I’m not nearly as qualified as like, W. D. Gaster himself, and don’t have a PHD or anything like that, but hopefully you get the idea.)

Amalgam Knight (or whatever revived, experimented on, effed-up Dess flavor you choose) would be more of a Claus parallel and would help explain why she turns evil in a much better way than her just faking it.

Well I’m glad you find this more plausible than pure Dess Knight. And it’d also make it so the actual Dess is genuinely missing, and “finding her” actually makes sense. My issues are only with the Knight being literally the Dess Holiday that everyone thought was missing

THAT is the thing that I say is less plausible than Asriel Knight and “Ralsei is piles of Asriel’s dust”. But if we’re allowing it to not be literally Dess Holiday, the issues go away.

I’m still convinced UNUSED is the real December by the way.

I don't think we can definitively say that UNUSED is Dess or what time the events depicted take place in. Dess was our best guess because she's the only other person we knew was missing. Now it more or less depends on one's own opinions relating to the Knight. That's why I didn't think it was worthwhile to bring up in argument.