I know all that. Since I'm still in school, I re-learned to read after becoming an Undertale fan.
The Knight being human at all doesn't really make sense. I mean...
- There's the whole detail of the Knight using magic, something Kris can't use due to being human, and more specifically using bullet patterns, which Undertale states humans are outright incapable of using.
- There's the fact the Knight's SOUL doesn't appear in the battle box, as we're shown it works for human SOULs.
- There's the obvious antlers pointing to the Knight being a reindeer.
- There's the fact Kris is working with the knight, while being pretty clearly established to not like other humans.
- There's Kris's status as the only human in town, while Susie's in-game theorizing narrows down the Knight's identity to someone who at least used to be active in the community. Knows the Mayor, connections to the police, goes to church...
Even before acknowledging the problem with Frisk specifically, where Clam Girl pretty clearly confirms Frisk is Kris, not some other character, along with Kris's design pretty clearly just being an aged up Frisk.
Kris is Frisk's skin and hair added to Chara's clothing preference.
Okay I see the issue
Right Kris also canât use magic in the Dark World
And the Knight doesnât have anything that might have granted them that magic
The human mages could use magic in Undertale but that was only with what looked like wands. The Knight doesnât have it so they do have to be a monster
So while itâs not as dead in the water as it literally being someone who is physically trapped in a bunker and has zero way of even opening fountains in the Light World, yeah the Knight canât be Frisk or Chara.
Ok, I know this is off-topic and I'm sorry, but I need to vent, because I just lost a game of Mario Party while, A - I was winning, and B - It was against a single CPU set to hard difficulty (the dead middle of possible difficulty). Does this game HATE ME or what?
If there was only one, Chapter 3 wouldnât be possible, because souls are the source of will, and will is required to open Dark Fountains.
No, you only need DETERMINATION. Queen makes that very clear.
It is the Fountain that has will. Either you can put your will into it, or let the darkness do a will of its own.
Also note that the one fountain we know for a fact Kris made has this area of pure darkness and nothingness at the start. And the other Dark World that also has this area (Castle Town) is the only other fountain that could have been made by Kris (Or Gaster, who was shattered across time and space and probably lacks a soul)
Gaster literally made us a vessel, told us itâd be our body, then got interrupted. Yes, the first hero was Kris, and the story canât really work without that, but just reading the dialogue makes it clear he didnât intend for the player to possess Kris. He even asks you to name your vessel, and that name doesnât apply to Kris, because they arenât intended to be your vessel during this scene, despite playing that role during the game.
Gaster knew what the prophecy said. We see part of the prophecy in old archives of the official Deltarune website, IN WINGDINGS. And it being told actoss time and space implies a link between Gaster and the prophecy. So Gaster knew Kris was the first hero, ie:He knew the soul would get shunted into Kris.
And again. He does not react AT ALL to us being in the âwrong vesselâ. In the leadup to Chapter 2, heâs all like âthis is going great, letâs prepare for the next connection!â And after Chapter 4 âOh, My Deltarune, this is great, weâve reached the halfway mark!â
This. Was. Planned. Otherwise, youâd think Gaster wouldnât be happy with the results. If we were really supposed to inhabit the vessel, why hasnât Gaster done a THING to try and put us back in the vessel? Itâs not like he was cut off from us, he got to speak to us again at the end of Chapter 4.
Gaster is playing both sides. This is all his experiment. He lied to us. That vessel will probably be used for other purposes. He is friends with IMAGE_FRIEND, who has ties to the Knight. This is all connected.
This is HIS DELTARUNE.
As I said, Flowey is the result of intentional scientific intervention , and itâs also applied to a monster. If Alphys didnât directly inject Determination into the flower, Flowey wouldnât exist.
All it took was injection of Determination. So what was the missing thing required? determination! If Alphys only added ONE thing and that was enough, itâs clear what was required was that ONE thing. Determination is the critical thing here. If it took anything else, injecting the flower with determination wouldnât have worked. Determination+essence is all it takes. No SOUL required.
A humanâs essence is in their SOUL, not their body.
No, itâs the body just like with monsters. It makes the most sense, Occamâs Razor and all that, nothing points to it being different. The books saying souls are the source of oneâs will makes no distinction between humans and monsters, so there is nothing at all to suggest the rules are somehow different between the two. (And see below for the Chara talk which I believe actually proves it must work the same way)
We also know that either A) Determination is exclusively in the SOUL, or B) That Determination canât resurrect things in a humanâs body. We know this because, during the genocide route, the dust of several monsters clings to Friskâs body, meaning their essence should be clinging to Frisk as well, but none of them ever awaken and possess them.
I donât see them doing a very good job at interfering with us. Asriel asborbed every single monster and nobody could rebel
Not only that, you still need a viable vessel. Frisk canât be that vessel because theyâre already taken. Chara has a vessel:Their body. The monsters⌠donât, itâs all dust. And even though essence would be in the body, possession is explicitly a soul-related thing. Thatâs how Chara controls Asriel, how we control Kris and Frisk⌠Thereâs a reason why the choice icon is always a soul. The soul is what player entities use to possess people. (Yes, I might be implying Chara originally had a player-esque entity possessing them as well. The player entity could be why Chara was acting like an RPG min-maxxer. Potentially even the six humans too. Itâs the basis for a story of mine, but also I think it doesnât go against canon at all. Though alternatively maybe only red souls can do this and thatâs what the red soul trait actually is)
What, if one of the fallen children approached the first flower, would they have suddenly been possessed by Asriel? Because thatâs basically what the âChara is soullessâ argument is saying.
Chara never possessed Frisk until we give Chara the SOUL that WE use to possess Frisk. Yes, the SOUL is ours, Chara asks US for OUR soul. Itâs both ours and Friskâs, thatâs why the files call it oursoul. What happened isnât possession. We implanted our determination onto Chara, allowing them to come back to life. Not in Friskâs body, in their OWN body. Like what we see at the end of the Murder Route. THAT. In order for them to possess Frisk, they need the soul. Then they just did what WE do with the SOUL to possess Frisk.
The narrator recognizes Dess and Asriel, characters we havenât even seen. Iâm fairly certain the narratorâs knowledge isnât limited to what happens on-screen. Not to mention the crash detail itself, we wouldnât know that if the narrator didnât somehow know that. If Kris has ever thrown the SOUL in the cage before, itâd be called out.
The narrator knows what Kris can physically see. Thatâs why they close their eyes in Chapter 2 when we try to look at Asrielâs room, because Kris knows the narrator would tell us what Kris sees. Kris can see Dess and Asriel in the photos, and the narrator can easily guess itâs Asriel and Dess because both were mentioned, Asriel is the only possible other Dreemur, and Dess is Noelleâs only sister, so it was an obvious conclusion for the narrator to make.
The narrator knows about the crash because the cage probably has indentations or other physical signs that a crash happened. The actual quote is something like âLooks like itâs seen a few crashesâ. They probably donât know what caused the crash.
As for what else wouldâve caused it? Literally anything that would Actually be a crash. Itâs a wagon, itâs meant for use outside, not as a cage. Couldâve crashed into a tree, or the side of a house, or Asgoreâs flower shop, or the doors to the shelter. Those would be crashes. Throwing something into it wouldnât be a crash.
Throwing something into it would have the same physical effect as a crash, though. And why would we be drawn to that attention? Anyway, why would Kris even be crashing it into those areas? Kris has no reason to even have that birdcage for any reason other than to keep the soul inside it.
Also, isnât it convenient that the crash detail suddenly stops being mentioned after the soul is thrown into it?
Almost as if that incident got the narrator to figure out what was really going on with that cage because now they just saw it
No, they just don't laugh at all. The second time narration makes it even more explicit that they didn't laugh, instead talking about how it "wasn't funny"
BUT it wasnât funny, as if they tried to laugh, but somehow failed. Seems emotes are the one thing we canât control. Just like we canât control Krisâ emotes, they can make whatever emotional expressions they want, we just decide what they say and do.
Frisk doesnât like soda. Seems pretty self-explanatory that itâs them. Why would the narrator just refuse to give us that choice prompt?
Why would the narrator just refuse to give us the choice prompt for the door? Why isnât there a âOpen the doorâ option? I consider this a parallel to the Church door from Deltarune. Weâre given two options, neither of which is what we actually want. Soda is not an option. Actually opening the door is not an option, the choices are explicitly either to turn the doorknob or not. Itâd be more straightforward for the choices to say to open the door or not. Maybe Kris has some influence here and made it so the prompt to open the door doesnât appear? Kris has been getting better and better at subverting our control over the chapters, Chapter 4 is the first time they actually flat-out disobey us by exploiting things like covering their mouth and even biting. (And the covering their mouth was to avoid being mean to Ralsei! The biting being to avoid saying theyâll never play piano again) I see Kris exploiting more and more of these loopholes as the chapters go on
But it seems âmaking yourself physically incapable of obeying the choice prompt to avoid itâ is a viable option.
Look at the âTurn Mettaton around earlyâ prompt. If Mettaton could just deny choice prompts, this wouldnât exist under any circumstances, because he doesnât want you to turn him around. Of course, even if this was somehow planned, that prompt still wouldnât exist unless it came from Frisk , because it relies on Frisk remembering they have to turn him around.
This seems like the narrator taking initiative here, not Frisk. The narrator is hinting here, saying SEEMS you could skip the monologue now. And no, Iâm not saying Mettaton prevented a prompt, I mean he just didnât give one. Anyone can give a prompt. The narrator, Mettaton, Toriel, anyone. Here, the narrator is giving us the option to turn him around.
In Mettaton EXâs thing about his merch, I donât read this as a meta thing involving the in-game choice prompt. I think itâs more mundane, he just didnât prompt us to answer. Itâs like kid TV programming. âSo, are you going to help us?â (you have no way of actually answering because they canât hear you itâs a broadcast) âYou are? Good!â
Maybe Frisk was going to say no, maybe Frisk even DID say no but Mettaton didnât bother to acknolwedge that
âAnymoreâ implies they once could understand. You donât just lose knowledge over time, so the lack of understanding canât be speaking about an intellectual sense. But if they no longer understand what itâs like because they can no longer think or feel in those terms⌠it makes perfect sense.
Also, Asriel didnât regain the ability to feel love when he absorbed the monster souls either, not until we specifically chose to save him as the final person to save. And when that did happen, he felt⌠not his own compassion, but that of all the monsters.
So this tells us when it comes to getting compassion with souls that are not yours, itâs not immediate, and even when it does work, you get THEIR feelings, not your own.
So, what should we expect from Flowey (Boss)? Well, we should expect not much understanding, and, best case scenario, he feels what the human souls feel.
âŚWhich would probably be what the humansâ player entities feel. (The SOUL is the link between player and vessel)
Now, what do we see? Well, Flowey loves feeling them wriggling inside, but still feels empty, but says the human is whatâs missing. The SOULs would also consider us as whatâs missing, it takes seven to break the barrier. Theyâre drained of their hope and compassion, thatâs why theyâre not sill alive (ie:Didnât LOAD their saves). These six souls are empty.
EDIT:It could also be that maybe you do need the soul, but thereâs a sort of grace period without it where you still have some leftover, like how it takes quite a bit time after Asriel releases the souls before he actually turns back into a flower. Perhaps everyone has a similar amount of time they can go without a soul without ill effects (which is why Kris can tear us out for a while, but always puts us back in not long after)
Or maybe, like the game implies, only Determination SOULs have more Determination than Flowey does? Also, it's possible that Chara's SOUL (that Asriel absorbed) gave its Determination to his dust, which got sprinkled on the flower. Not enough DT to be able to revive on his own, but enough that, with the extra Alphys put in, he had more than your average human child (This is assuming Frisk isn't average in DT levels).
Queen specifies Will. Berdly demonstrates that it's will. Queen also states Will and Determination are the same thing. Souls are the source of Will, which is Determination, which also confirms a soul is required to have Determination, at least under Deltarune rules. (Flowey is an exception because he was injected directly)
The area of nothingness isn't something to do with soullessness. They aren't soulless, otherwise they wouldn't have the Will needed to open the fountain. That area of nothingness in Chapter 3 is the couch. Also, it's specifically stated that that nothingness formerly encompassed the entire TV World, and that the Darkners built on top of it.
Yes, he knew about the prophecy. He tried to make us our own vessel anyway, was interrupted, but was fine with the outcome because it still lets the story happen. If he intended for us to possess Kris from the start, why go through the Gonermaker sequence in the first place?? Why does he keep trying on every new Ch1 run??? If he never intended the player to control the vessel, he's Literally just wasting his own time.
Yeah... for a monster. For a human, their SOUL is required because their essence is part of it. A human's essence and SOUL aren't two different things, they're one and the same. Flowey was only able to exist soulless because of a difference between humans and monsters.
No, it's in their SOUL. This is demonstrated. If it was in their body, the six SOULs wouldn't be able to rebel against Flowey, and Chara wouldn't have had control over Asriel's body. The fact the SOULs could rebel proves they're conscious, and that their essence is in their SOUL. The fact Chara could control Asriel's body proves their essence is in their SOUL. The fact they REMEMBER their plan failing, something they only experienced through their SOUL, proves their essence is in their SOUL, and that it's still present.
That was my point. They don't interfere with Frisk because either A) Frisk's DT isn't in their body, meaning it can't awaken them, or B) Because a human's body can't serve as a host for this interaction at all.
No, Frisk isn't being possessed. They're being guided, and told what to do, but voluntarily following instructions. Chara possessing Asriel is from their essence being in their SOUL, which was inside his body at that time.
The SOUL is Frisk's alone. The soul is named spr_heart in the files. spr_ourheart is one specific instance, only used for the Flowey fight, where "our" refers to Frisk and Flowey, the one who wants to take it and thinks he's already won.
The instance where the narrator identifies Dess was before Carol was introduced. Why assume it's Dess and not Carol? Why assume it's Dess when it could technically be some other relative?
The Asriel pictures, Asriel's resemblance to Ralsei in the one in the Dreemurr Residence is directly pointed out by Susie. Why assume it's Asriel, and not reach the same conclusion as Susie with "Vanilla Ralsei"? Or, again, why wouldn't the narrator even consider the cousin possibility? Not to mention, the photo can be inspected before even hearing about Asriel, AND before seeing Asgore! If the narrator doesn't already know things, Asgore would be a more reasonable assumption, considering his first mandatory appearance isn't until Chapter 4, and you can see this dialogue at the very start of Chapter 1. Why does the narrator even know Kris HAS a brother at this point? Asriel doesn't get mentioned until the car cutscene.
If the crash narration was just from looking at the wagon? Damage from crashing into stuff would look a lot different than a heart-shaped object being thrown into the cage right in the middle of it. The front of the wagon would be damaged by an actual crash, but only the center could be damaged from the SOUL being thrown into it, creating a noticeably different look.
No, it wouldn't. Completely different points of impact. A soul being thrown into the cage in the center would look a lot different than the front of it crashing into something.
Not to mention, another possibility. If Kris got it for the SOUL... who says they didn't just buy a used one, with the crashes being from before they got it?
No, as if the crashes were unrelated, and the more important detail is how the soul can't escape. "Soul thrown into cage" and "Crashed" would create two completely different forms of damage.
The first use shows the narrator is narrating before Frisk does the action. The second one can't be in response to Frisk's action if the narrator is narrating it first.
Even then, you've been so focused on the laugh act, you haven't even acknowledged heckle. The other act Frisk refuses to follow through with.
Those Kris examples are them interrupting the action. The one where they refuse to be mean to Ralsei is them yawning to interrupt it, not just covering their mouth to make it impossible.
As for the 'open the door' point, opening doors normally doesn't require a prompt at all. The ones in the guest hallway of Queen's mansion aren't "open the door," but "Peek inside," while Susie's opens automatically. Every other door is either locked, a warp, or has another interaction.
The soda example is straight up, no prompt at all. Not even a "Grab the soda" (You grabbed the soda. But you didn't take it.) option, just, you don't get a prompt period. There's one for the noodles, and that's literally it.
Or, he did get a response, the player just didn't get the choice because Frisk answered on their own. Seems a Lot simpler.
Keep in mind, Mettaton has more reason to actually listen to Frisk than most monsters do, considering not only did they get him the highest ratings his show has ever had, not only did their actions give Alphys the push to finish his new body, not only did their actions convince him to reunite with his cousin, not only did their actions remind him how fun it is to perform with others, not only are they the single most qualified person in the Underground to inform him what humans would want to buy, but they ALSO had a role in breaking the barrier, meaning he wouldn't even be thinking about this without their help. If ANYONE would care what they have to say, it would unironically be Mettaton, considering just how much they've helped him in comparison to literally anyone else in the Underground.
It's not like "Frisk isn't being controlled, but voluntarily follows instructions" even goes against their established character. On the contrary, it lines up with them following instructions, without question, from Toriel, Sans, Papyrus, and Alphys at various points throughout the game. Taking Toriel's hand for the spike maze, shaking Sans's hand and hiding behind the lamp, chasing the Annoying Dog when Papyrus tells them to, activating the jetpack when Alphys tells them to...
Frisk isn't obeying player input because they're forced to. They're obeying because they just listen to people they trust. It's a subtle piece of Frisk characterization, not something that implies they're being controlled. Just like Frisk being in charge of choice prompts is a subtle piece of characterization, which also shows that trust.
"Understand" and "Feel" are two different things. The ability to understand it doesn't mean they don't feel love. They're not even talking about being unable to feel love, they're unable to understand your feelings like they thought they could; They thought they understood your goal was power, but it wasn't. They thought they understood you wanted to destroy the world, but you didn't. Not to mention, Flowey still understands love, he just can't feel it.
Asriel did regain the ability to feel love immediately. He just didn't stop until his memories were restored, because it's his memories that made him stop, not just his compassion. Also, he outright says he got his own compassion back after the fight.
During his boss fight, Flowey didn't feel love or compassion at all. No desire to break the barrier. The SOULs clearly aren't on the same page of getting the seventh SOUL, considering they outright oppose him. They aren't empty, they're still conscious and aware of what's going on. None of that makes any sense. Not to mention, Flowey doesn't even know they're rebelling until they literally attack him, that doesn't make any sense at all with the idea of him feeling what they're feeling.
And when it comes to time without a SOUL? Well, for one, it's outright stated that removing a monster's SOUL from their body would instantly kill them, there's no grace period. Two, Kris leaves the soul out for the whole night at the end of Ch4, which wouldn't make sense to do if they literally needed it to stay alive.
Determination isn't a SOUL trait. The game never even implies it's a SOUL trait. Frisk's SOUL shatters, something human SOULs aren't supposed to do, and Determination is supposed to prevent. The fact Frisk's shatters, but the six SOULs are still intact, shows Frisk has the least DT of the fallen children.
If Frisk is THIS obedient⌠they actually still canât be Kris.
Because Kris would do everything in their power to stop the Weird Route (See all the ways we learnt hey fought against it in Chapter 4)âŚ
But Frisk seems perfectly fine with killing all the monsters. They donât resist AN INCH.
So, the two characters are still vastly different from each other
Kris is not Frisk
Kris is Kris
You... do realize that...
A) Kris is older, and has different experiences. Just because they grew up and are going through an emo phase doesn't mean they're not the same person.
B) Kris has an actual relationship with Noelle and Berdly that predates gameplay, so of course they'd be mad when some random person they don't know starts forcing them to traumatize Noelle and almost murder Berdly???
C) Frisk is obedient out of trust. Kris Doesn't Like You, even before Weird Route is involved. That's not a counterpoint, because this perfectly fits into Frisk's characterization: Kris is obedient to Carol, but not you, because they trust Carol, but not you.
If Frisk has the least DT, then how can they SAVE and prevent Flowey from doing the same when he doesn't have the other SOULs?
Having less than the other fallen children doesn't mean having less than Flowey. They have more than Flowey, but less than the other humans.
Doesn't the game imply they couldn't SAVE though? Why would they be dead if they could SAVE?
They could SAVE. They have save files. Flowey's DT comes from them. It's impossible for them not to have that power, due to how timeline control works.
It's confirmed by Toriel that not only could they save, but they've canonically reset before, because she has deja vu from them doing so.
Still though, if they could SAVE, why'd they end up dead?
Genuine question at this point lol
Because they accepted death, and decided it'd be preferable over living out their lives with Toriel.
If they wanted Asgore dead, they 100% could've taken him down. The perseverance SOUL's trait is entirely about persisting despite difficulty, they would've tried as many times as they needed to beat Asgore if they wanted to kill him. The justice SOUL had the strongest equipment and strongest SOUL mode, with the Empty Gun being the single strongest weapon in the game for fighting Asgore (including Real Knife), the cowboy hat boosting that damage further, and the yellow SOUL mode being a buffed red SOUL.
That, or they got UTY True Pacifist'd
Queen specifies Will. Berdly demonstrates that it's will. Queen also states Will and Determination are the same thing. Souls are the source of Will, which is Determination, which also confirms a soul is required to have Determination, at least under Deltarune rules. (Flowey is an exception because he was injected directly)
So, they probably mean a different kind of will than what souls have. And how does Berdly demonstrate itâs will? Determination is something all Lightners have, of course he can make a Dark Fountain
Either way itâs possible to at least have some time without one if youâve had one before. Otherwise Asriel would die instantly after he released all the SOULs after the barrier broke. Clearly there is a grace period. We donât know how long it is, but heâs still Asriel during the credit sequence, but turns into Flowey if we reopen the game afterwards, and by the time the Alarm Clock takes place, heâs also Flowey again.
The area of nothingness isn't something to do with soullessness. They aren't soulless, otherwise they wouldn't have the Will needed to open the fountain. That area of nothingness in Chapter 3 is the couch.
Why is it a match with the one in Chapter 1? The only thing those two physical locations have in common Iâm aware of is that maybe the Knight didnât make either of them
Also no the nothingness is not the couch. The couch is its own Darkner that is sleeping, and wakes up after you interact with it.
Also, it's specifically stated that that nothingness formerly encompassed the entire TV World, and that the Darkners built on top of it.
No, itâs the Egg World that formerly encompassed the entire TV World.
Yes, he knew about the prophecy. He tried to make us our own vessel anyway, was interrupted , but was fine with the outcome because it still lets the story happen. If he intended for us to possess Kris from the start, why go through the Gonermaker sequence in the first place?? Why does he keep trying on every new Ch1 run??? If he never intended the player to control the vessel, he's Literally just wasting his own time.
So, the game actually generates vessel save data if you try to start from a chapter other than Chapter 1. This implies the vessel will resurface for some other purpose later on. Whatever that purpose is⌠is probably the real reason Gaster asked us to make the vessel.
No, it's in their SOUL. This is demonstrated . If it was in their body, the six SOULs wouldn't be able to rebel against Flowey, and Chara wouldn't have had control over Asriel's body.
Alright, so before I was split between whether the six humans had player entities or not, but now Iâm fully convinced they do have player entities because of this detail. Because yes, it wouldnât make sense for these to be the six humans. (And for Chara)
SOULs are the link between player entities and the vessel. Yes, Iâm implying Chara had a player. That is distinct from the human in the same way we are with Kris and Frisk.
The fact the SOULs could rebel proves they're conscious, and that their essence is in their SOUL.
It proves theyâre conscious, and the SOUL is what is controlling them.
The fact Chara could control Asriel's body proves their essence is in their SOUL.
Or, it proves the SOUL is what is controlling them, in the exact way that we use the soul to control Frisk and Kris.
The fact they REMEMBER their plan failing, something they only experienced through their SOUL , proves their essence is in their SOUL, and that it's still present.
Alright, actually, thatâs fair. They did refer to âtheirâ plan failing, and they wouldnât have known the outcome if they werenât the one who got to see it. Which would imply the Chara speaking to us at the end is Player!Chara, not Human!Chara. (This would also explain why they can take the soul in the first place. Humans cannot absorb human souls. âCharaâ can because this is Charaâs player entity⌠somehow. Well, the one we DONâT see is the Chara player entity for sure (the one we wait 10 minutes to speak with) Player entities do have different rules than both humans and monsters, so it would make sense for Chara to act this way if itâs not the human Chara. (Us the player actually parallel Flowey in many ways [assuming we actually do the Murder Route])
EDIT:âCharaâ even puts the name âCharaâ in quotes. Maybe itâs a hint theyâre not Chara, but the one possessing Chara?
That was my point. They don't interfere with Frisk because either A) Frisk's DT isn't in their body, meaning it can't awaken them, or B) Because a human's body can't serve as a host for this interaction at all.
Or, C:To possess a body THAT IS ALREADY THEIR OWN ENTITY, you need a soul. We canât possess Kris without the soul. The flower is suitable because it is not its own living entity (The cactus is a Darkner in the Dark World, so Deltarune/Undertale considers plants as inanimate)
No, Frisk isn't being possessed. They're being guided, and told what to do, but voluntarily following instructions. Chara possessing Asriel is from their essence being in their SOUL, which was inside his body at that time.
And we pilot the soul, which is inside Friskâs body. Same idea. Just like with Kris. This isnât a Chasriel situation, this is a Kris situation.
The SOUL is Frisk's alone. The soul is named spr_heart in the files. spr_ourheart is one specific instance, only used for the Flowey fight, where "our" refers to Frisk and Flowey , the one who wants to take it and thinks he's already won.
Why would Flowey not just say itâs his alone? Also, True pacifist files have things starting with my_ which belong to Frisk, which implies the names are from Friskâs perspective. Why would Frisk say it belongs to them and Flowey?
If there really is ONLY one person the soul belongs to, I say itâs our soul and NOT Friskâs. Just like what you claim is going on with Kris. Chara is talking to US, asking for OUR soul. We know they mean us and not Frisk because Frisk forgets events through True Resets, while Chara assumes we remember. Not only that, Legends of Localization notes the specific kind of Japanese text used is meant to reference a situation in Earthbound where the game started referring to us instead of Ness. The textual evidence suggests we are the intended recipent of Charaâs talk, not Frisk. And since Chara refers to the soul as ours, the soul is ours. Itâs either ours and Friskâs, or just ours and not Friskâs.
The instance where the narrator identifies Dess was before Carol was introduced. Why assume it's Dess and not Carol? Why assume it's Dess when it could technically be some other relative?
Why would it be Noelleâs mother? Looks far too young to be Noelleâs mother.
The Asriel pictures, Asriel's resemblance to Ralsei in the one in the Dreemurr Residence is directly pointed out by Susie. Why assume it's Asriel, and not reach the same conclusion as Susie with "Vanilla Ralsei"?
Thereâs only one sibling, because thereâs only one other bed in the room. We know whoever that other sibling is has to currently be away because we donât see them. Toriel wakes us up and not whoever else is in that bed, so clearly itâs someone who is away. And exactly ONE other person.
Asriel is away at college, and is our brother. So it HAS to be him. There. The narrator knows it from the start of Chapter 1!
Or, again, why wouldn't the narrator even consider the cousin possibility?
Itâs on the fridge. And we already know by the bed count no other people live in the house.
Not to mention, the photo can be inspected before even hearing about Asriel, AND before seeing Asgore! If the narrator doesn't already know things, Asgore would be a more reasonable assumption, considering his first mandatory appearance isn't until Chapter 4 , and you can see this dialogue at the very start of Chapter 1.
Krisâs father? The photo shows someone around the same age as Kris, why would be Krisâ father? It has to be whoever lived in the same room as Kris!
Why does the narrator even know Kris HAS a brother at this point? Asriel doesn't get mentioned until the car cutscene.
The other bed? Also the computer shows a game Asriel was working on, showing a final boss with rainbow wings, which is probably meant to be Asriel Undertale.
If the crash narration was just from looking at the wagon? Damage from crashing into stuff would look a lot different than a heart-shaped object being thrown into the cage right in the middle of it. The front of the wagon would be damaged by an actual crash, but only the center could be damaged from the SOUL being thrown into it, creating a noticeably different look.
Maybe it was sideways when it crashed? Certainly seems more plausible than someone tearing their own soul out like a crazy person
Kris proceeds to tear out the soul like a crazy person
Nevermind I was wrong Iâll stop calling it a crash
Not to mention, another possibility. If Kris got it for the SOUL... who says they didn't just buy a used one, with the crashes being from before they got it?
Okay, maybe thatâs entirely fair, which would make the crash thing a big red herring. Except⌠It canât even function as a good red herring because it vanishes right when weâd cling into it as a red herring.
Still, I guess that means itâs not technically impossible for the dialogue to mean something other than Kris having done this before Chapter 1âŚ
Wait, actually, In Chapter 2, after they tear out the soul again in the bathroom, Toriel points out Kris⌠does this sometimes.
There. More evidence theyâd done this BEFORE we showed up!
Even then, you've been so focused on the laugh act, you haven't even acknowledged heckle. The other act Frisk refuses to follow through with.
Frisk could have done a heckle that doesnât match the exact heckle the narrator mentions. I see it as a heckle on how they got this ugly in the first place. Or maybe they did a Kris and just yawned.
As for the 'open the door' point, opening doors normally doesn't require a prompt at all. The ones in the guest hallway of Queen's mansion aren't "open the door," but "Peek inside," while Susie's opens automatically. Every other door is either locked, a warp, or has another interaction.
So Kris just straight up disobeyed us with Asrielâs room then because they donât peek inside, they close their eyes specifically to NOT peek inside
The soda example is straight up, no prompt at all. Not even a "Grab the soda" (You grabbed the soda. But you didn't take it.) option, just, you don't get a prompt period . There's one for the noodles, and that's literally it.
Yes, and you donât have the option to enter in a code into the bunker, or get in Asgoreâs truck and run over Noelle
Limited choices donât tell us much. The instant noodles came first. Also, this could be the narrator again. If you go to read a book in Torielâs house, âHereâs a random pageâ. No prompt to choose to read from the start. Canât be Frisk because itâs Hereâs a random page, as if this was the narratorâs choice.
âââ
Sure, Frisk did more for Mettaton than anyone else. But this is the same monster who desecrated a royal memorial just to add a statue of himself. And ask Burgerpants how Mettatonâs like.
Mettaton is just THAT bad. If anyone would act selfish enough to just go around forcing people into things (Also, take a look at the ending where he becomes dictator), it would be Mettaton.
Asriel did regain the ability to feel love immediately. He just didn't stop until his memories were restored, because it's his memories that made him stop, not just his compassion. Also, he outright says he got his own compassion back after the fight.
Hm, interesting. Strange since he doesnât have his own soul. âŚMaybe he has a version of his compassion that came from how the monsters remembered him, and this is an Old Man Deltarune situationâŚ?
During his boss fight, Flowey didn't feel love or compassion at all. No desire to break the barrier. The SOULs clearly aren't on the same page of getting the seventh SOUL, considering they outright oppose him.
They only oppose him AFTER we call out to them. Theyâre all for him and granting him save files before then
Frisk is obedient out of trust. Kris Doesn't Like You , even before Weird Route is involved. That's not a counterpoint, because this perfectly fits into Frisk's characterization: Kris is obedient to Carol, but not you, because they trust Carol, but not you.
We met Frisk and Kris the same way though, in both cases weâre just a random stranger that latched onto them. Why does Frisk immediately trust us and Kris immediately hate us if theyâre the exact same person? Doesnât that show, a difference in characterization?
Kris has an actual relationship with Noelle and Berdly that predates gameplay, so of course they'd be mad when some random person they don't know starts forcing them to traumatize Noelle and almost murder Berdly???
Not saying they wouldnât be. My question is why doesnât Frisk feel the same way? Toriel was nothing but kind to them, yet theyâd just straight-up MURDER her without question?! What the actualâŚ
There is no way the same person who fought so hard to stop the weird route would turn into a complete genocidal maniac so willingly, with ZERO resistance! If Kris and Frisk were the same person, theyâd tear us out, put us under the bed, and kick all over us after we kill Toriel.
Weâd get the tinnitus scene