Pretty self explanatory but the GND motif is used almost exclusively for Noelle
GND is Noelle's overworld theme, Gingerbread House is Noelle's House, Noelle is heavily involved with the festival, I guess I'm In Love is Noelle's and Susie's love song, Walking Home is Susie monologuing about Noelle, and ch5_inversion_lake_chant is Noelle drowning herself
The only room for doubt is Friends (also TDSOBF but it's just quoting friends so it's irrelevant to this) the Diner Scene has nothing to do with Noelle I'll admit, but the Friends motif never appears without GND so they're obviously related.
Speaking of Friends I think that's Susie post character arc motif
It plays in Friends(Susie bonding with Kris), Festival and i guess i'm in love(same relation as Noelle), and Walking Home(Susie monologuing). Friends is a modified version of Susie, after all
If Friends is Susie's theme then it's a no brainer that GND shows up in Friends given Susie and Noelle's relationship
I tried to put GND as Noelle's leitmotif on the wiki but it was undone so here I am, if I am, in fact, tripping then please tell me
I thought it was universally agreed Girl Next Door is Noelle’s theme…
I mean, it’s litteraly Girl Next Door!! Kris’s neighbor, Noelle, who is the Girl Next Door!
as for the other stuff yeah that seems accurate
GND is literally only in Friends because Friends is a remix of Festival lol
I wish I knew that when I made this post that would have skipped a lot of yapping but my point still stands
Friends:
- It’s explicitly mentioned the main melody is a modification of Susie’s theme, so it should be listed as a variation.
Girl Next Door: There are pro and cons to consider this Noelle leitmotif:
- Pros: "Girl Next Door" was introduced as a background melody, showing how Noelle erases her true self to fit her "good girl" image, and the fact it’s put in front more and more shows how she’s not afraid to think for herself anymore. Also, the subsequent uses of "Lost Girl" tend to make it Dess’ leitmotif (she’s the Lost Girl, after all).
- Cons: Chapter 2 used "Lost Girl" in every normal route theme associated with Noelle, and even if it can be taken as an example of "never stop to your first impression", Tricky Tony certainly did that to show that Noelle (although not as much as Carol) is still haunted by Dess’ memory, and it’s been only one chapter where it’s not been used at all. Considering these points, "Lost Girl" can be considered a shared motif between Noelle and Dess (just like "HEY EVERY !" is Spamton and Tenna’s partnership motif, at least before the latter took it in the divorce).
- Edit: another con is that except for TDSOBF, the constant for themes with "Girl Next Door" is not Noelle, but Susie: "Friends" plays when she and Kris date in QC Diner and ride the Ferris Wheel, while "Walking Home" plays when Kris brings Susie to Castle Town at the end of Chapter 5. Maybe it can be considered a shared leitmotif between the three.
Pretty good points
- Lost girl being a shared motif like HEY EVERY is intresting but I wouldn't put to much stock into it, since Dess and Noelle are so close anyway
- Yes, of Noelle's themes in ch2(Girl next door, Lost Girl, and Ferris wheel) 1 uses GND and all 3 use Lost Girl but this could be representing Noelle being stuck in the past in ch2, Dess means so much to her that Dess's motif practically buries Noelle's. Then in Chapter 4 and 5 Noelle's leitmotif appears without lost girl to show her living for herself again for the first time since Dess disappeared
- I'm hesitant to say GND is Susie and Noelle's motif because, while it could be and then starting in the bassline could represent Susie and Noelle not knowing eachother well, it could also be that Susie and Noelle are close like with Dess. It would also be strange to give susie 3 motifs but then again Tenna has like 5 so anythings possible.
Overall Lost Girl is probably Dess's theme, though it could be Noelle and Dess's shared motif
Girl Next Door is either Noelle's motif or a shared motif between Susie and Noelle,(either way noelle's page should list it)
And Friends is definitely Susie's theme
After a brief conversation on the discord:
- Lost Girl is definitely not just Dess's motif. It appears just as much in Noelle tracks as in Dess tracks, it's used for several other characters too, and Toby Fox pretty much straight up said that Lost Girl (the track) was originally (mainly) a Noelle theme (the filename is even noelle_normal). There's no way it should just be listed like that on the Dess page. Point 2 in jojo's reply there goes far too much into speculation.
- Girl Next Door is associated with Noelle, but that's not really enough to list it as Noelle's motif without any caveats. For one, as mentioned above, the Lost Girl motif is just as much associated with Noelle as the GND one, if not more. Second, it plays in several tracks that are not directly related to Noelle. My interpretation is that GND is Noelle-related and that Friends is Susie-related and them appearing together so often now is symbolic of their now close relationship, but we're delving into speculation here. The wiki should keep it to where it's clear-cut, which this isn't.
- Friends wasn't listed as a variation of Susie's motif because it's, like, WAY different. I added that line in the first place primarily because the similarity is very likely intentional, but calling it a "variation" when it's so different feels like a stretch. You can say part of a motif looks like part of another one without listing it as a variation. I mean, if everyone thinks it should be listed as a variation, it probably can, but I don't really feel that it should personally.
I don't think it's correct to list this as Noelle's leitmotif and certainly not as Dess's leitmotif. There have also been conversations about this in the discord, and the fact that it's so heavily used across different scenes that don't even involve Noelle means it doesn't have the exclusive connection to Noelle that would be needed for it to be her leitmotif. It's possible for a motif to be associated with a character without that motif representing a character, and I think that's exactly what's happened here.
For completeness, here's a list of instances where the lost girl motif plays in contexts unrelated to Noelle (as indicated on the wiki on the track pages of songs that include the motif):
- Cutscene with Susie in Cold Place
- Cutscene with Susie, Ralsei, and Kris in Ralsei's room
- Cutscene with Susie and Kris in the church
- At the end of Pink's battle
- When Susie finds uneaten moss near the dog dumpster in Cyber City
- Rock Video minigame (Raise Up Your Bat)
Declaring a motif as a character's leitmotif has specific implications beyond just a connection to that character. While a motif can have a connection to certain characters, a leitmotif has a connection that's strong enough to imply an association with the character it represents merely by playing that leitmotif. A great example of a leitmotif is the "Toriel" motif in Undertale. Because the "Toriel" motif is so often played when there's a cutscene with Toriel, the connection between the motif and the character is strong enough that you could anticipate that Toriel is about to show up if you hear her leitmotif. This is absolutely not the case with the lost girl motif: it plays in enough different contexts that there's no expectation that Noelle is going to be involved when it plays. Because that strong connection isn't there, I don't believe calling it Noelle's leitmotif is correct.
Given how this motif is not exclusive to Noelle (or Dess) and is used extensively in ways that aren't meant to evoke Noelle (or Dess), I would propose not listing this motif as a leitmotif for any specific character and leave the details on which characters the motif may be associated with on the Leitmotifs page (which it already is). This is what's on the Leitmotifs page, for context:
Despite appearing prominently in tracks associated with Noelle (and Dess), the motifs themselves do not exclusively belong to her, being used for Ralsei and Susie as well.
To be Clear, I made this post for the Girl Next Door motif, as in the motif that originates in the bassline of Girl next door, not lost girl, I do think the lost girl motif has something to do dess(like raise up your bat for example) but given how the actual lost girl song is used for anyone it's not safe to call lost girl dess's leitmotif, not that lost girl is the point of my post but still. (also the end of pink's battle is confession not lost girl)
If you’re talking about making "Friends" a "Susie" part 2, it won’t work unless Toby Fox releases a track where both themes are used subsequently. For now, a more accurate categorization would be to combine "Friends" and "Girl Next Door" as part 1 and part 2 respectively, as both themes are often used subsequently, but even in this case, it would require more time (possibly the release of Chapter 7) to consider these themes two halves of a bigger motif.
Looks like I got the two motifs mixed up while writing out the post, my bad. The argument is the same for the Girl Next Door motif as what I posted, but I'll go ahead and write out a list of times the Girl Next Door motif is used in contexts unrelated to Noelle since it's a slightly different list than with the lost girl motif:
- When Susie finds uneaten moss near the dog dumpster in Cyber City
- Cutscene in QC's Diner
- During the cutscene with Flowery and Asgore in the Ideal Diner
- Hometown (post Flower Kingdom)
- After Ralsei explains the Roaring to Kris, Susie, Noelle, Berdly, and Queen after the GIGA Queen fight (Noelle is there, but the cutscene isn't really focused on her)
I'll admit I can't explain the moss one I really just wasn't aware of that but as for the others:
Friends is most likely Susie's theme as I said at the top and thus has GND to show Noelle and Susie's relationship (the Flowery diner scene is Flowery trying to mimic the vibes of the Diner scene so the motif carries over)
The End of Ch5(walking home) is about Susie talking about adding Noelle to the team, I hardly see how noelle is unrelated
and the end of ch2, Noelle is a major character in the scene and Girl next door is played to lighten the mood and book end the chapter with the song.
If I heard the Girl Next Door motif, I would automatically assume Noelle would show up. It's introduced in her theme song and is almost always used where noelle is relevant(moss not withstanding) just because queen is in catswing when it shouldn't be doesn't mean it can't be Queen's motif
The fact that this is a debate at all is silly. Sans’s theme is used on Napstablook’s snail farm in Undertale. Alphys’s theme is used for a bird that has no relation to her. The fact is that this motif is just intuitively Noelle’s theme.
Okay so GND has been marked as "been used as a melody in themes involving Noelle, but also Susie and Kris." and my edit on Noelle's page still stands and that's good enough for me
As for Friends, it's a weird case, it and Susie clearly represent the same character but they can't be parts of a bigger Leitmotif because they never appear together and they're not musically similar enough to be a variation so the only conclusion is to just say friends is susie's post character arc leitmotif in the motifs description
I've been thinking some and I want to add one last thing, I'm not expecting a response I just want to say my peace.
I still hold that GND is Noelle's Leitmotif, and it's crazy how strict we're being. If a motif that is
- Introduced in a character's theme song and 2. Used for that character with 2 exceptions (the moss and maybe Friends) isn't enough to prove that it's that characters leitmotif then what is?
Take Queen, Berdly and Tenna for example: Queen part 1 is supposedly in Catswing, does that make it not Queen's leitmotif? If Berdly was put under this level of Scrutiny it would be called "Motif that is used in songs associated with queen and Berdly". Why is it in Knock em' down when Berdly leaves the scene right before the song plays? The rest of those songs can be tied to Queen as well as Berdly, after all. Tenna plays in SWORD, despite SWORD playing for the original version Tenna didn't change, should Tenna be changed to "Melody used for Tenna and the general concepts of the boards". If we're being this strict then that would be correct.
However, we don't do this because it's just simpler and makes more sense to say that these are One Character's Leitmotif and, one out of place usage is not and has not been enough to make it a purely musical motif.
So then why are we being like this with GND? (Which I cannot stress enough has ONE out of place usage, maybe 2 if you don't buy my friends explanation) I mean if Berdly was played for a one-off joke that had nothing to do with Berdly in ch6 would it STOP being Berdly's leitmotif? If we were this strict about this Deltarune would have like 6 leitmotifs and that's so wrong.
My point is I don't understand the pushback I've gotten for this, but if people just don't see eye to eye with me on this I won't pry at any longer. I mean I've already tried twice even if every user on the site gave me the thumbs up to do it I still wouldn't try it a 3rd time.
Again, not asking for a reply just ranting my ideas to anyone who will listen
yea that sounds smart
I see words, it checks out.
i dont think any leitmotifs in deltarune actually matter and are just cool melodies to set tones
lost girl is described at the dess motif by a lot of the community but then why does susie use it in the cold place thing?
its just to set tones i think
that's not a leitmotif then, that's just a regular motif