Are you sure? We know that at least some monsters can produce DT. And that monsters can't handle high concentration of determination (which isn't argument for them not being able to produce DT
“Within, it holds your WILL… your Compassion”
“The font of our compassion”
I already said that being sentient doesn't require Soul at all. They are separate metaphysical concepts in UTDR. Kris still have mind when they are soulless. I agreed that existence of beings that are alive without both Souls and DT is somewhat conflicting with UT
I agree with most of this, exxept the Kris part. I believe in Kris two soul theory, in which Kris has their own soul and we are just an intruder soul taking over.
Holds will and compassion, but that doesn’t mean it has to have compassion. I don’t have to use something that I have.
In Japanese translation, it clearly said that they can't enter Dark Worlds(in original it's just heavily implied). Other Lightners can enter them without problems with their Souls. If Kris still had their original Soul, they too would be able to enter them without problem.
Won't discuss it, since you already think that Spawns are soulless being. So you agree that in DR there are soulless beings without DT/will. Regular Darkners are same thing, but just sentient(which doesn't require Soul).
Mind and Soul are separate metaphysical concept. In some philosophies, religions and fictional creations they are treated as one thing. But in majority of cases they are treated as different things, that are most of the times linked.
UTDR is world where Soul and Mind are merely linked. Flowey is sentient soulless being, he have same mind as Asriel, through having same essence as him. Darkner Gerson too doesn't have his original Soul, yet is treated as to have same mind as Lightner Gerson, thanks to him having same essence. Kris without our soul is sentient soulless being.
This could be because of main character stuff. For all we know, it’s because we are the only human soul that can enter dark worlds.
Just saying that UT and DR are VASTLY different. There are different rules, different storylines and backstory, and everything.
As I said, determination.
That wasn’t gerson. That was a copy with the same memories. As said by ralsei in CH4. the copy is sentient, but it wasn’t the same mind. it was a different mind with the same memories.
(just gonna say Don’t Start up any religion stuff. It gets HEATED.)
Unfound assumption. Much more easier explanation is that Kris doesn't have their original Soul(or it's under our control currently). What are your evidence against this interpretation?
If you insist, I would stop referencing UT in that conversation. You too should obviously.
I understand your worries. I just was trying to say that most philosophies and many fictional settings permit existence of soulless sentient beings.
To reiterate:
DR Soul can produce Will/DT(maybe it's same thing as in UT, but it's too unclear, so I won't dwell on it).
Lightners use it to create Fountains. Darkners can't do it, but would be able to do it if they obtained Will/DT somehow.
Darkners lack DT, so either a) their Soul can't produce it(empty souls theory, I like this name honestly) or b)they lack Soul.
Is there problems with empty souls theory?:
Why would Toby Fox wrote that Soul can produce will, and yet have being with Souls who can't produce it? What are narrative purpose of such souls? What is their function?
Is there problems with soulless Darkners theory:
You agree that soulless beings without DT can exist, such as Titanspawns.
You think that having sentience/mind without soul is impossible. Since most philosophies and fictional creations treat them as different things, there is nothing contradictory about such beings.
Kris to our best knowledge lives as Soulless being without us
You asked me to stop referencing UT, yet you still do it yourself. Only time we encounter word determination in DR, is in context of creating fountains, nowhere else.
Again, in most cases in fiction soul and mind are different things, unless it's clearly stated that soulless beings can't be sentient, there is no reason to think that such beings can't exist in Deltarune
Queen dialogue imply that Darkners can obtain will/DT. Which requires it to be something that can be stored or extracted. Soul is only source of will, beings that had Soul would still have at least some amount of it if their Soul get removed.
I’m not going to continue this debate. this has been about 40 replies, and any debate over that amount always just turns to petty arguing. I hope we can just agree to disagree before this turns into a “Yuh-uh, Nuh-uh” situation.
I’m pretty certain darkners have no soul, at least they probably don’t have souls in the same way as lightners. Objects don’t have souls. Darkners are objects, reinterpreted by darkness.
Lightners having souls, or “real” souls if you so wish, is why they’re the same in both worlds, and can create dark worlds. The lightners are “more real,” their perspectives are the perspectives that matter to the world.
Darkners arguably are imbued with determination, considering that’s what you use to create a dark world, and a dark world asserts your will over reality. However, that presumably only lasts as long as the dark fountain is affecting the objects.
This is all perhaps why, like a lot of people believe, Spamton could have left the dark world if he had taken Kris’s soul.
So I know this is not what the conversation is about right NOW, but a third confirmation that being soulless means you can't feel certain emotions (love and compassion, mostly) is Flowey, actually.
In genocide, his dialogue in New Home mentions how even after finding Toriel, he didn't feel anything. And in the True Pacifist epilogue, if you go to the first room again, Asriel is there and explains how he did the things he did as Flowey because he didn't have a SOUL and couldn't feel love or compassion.
(So in a way, he turned from feeling love, to feeling LOVE, if you know what I mean.)