Considering moving pronouns citations to a seperate page for accessibility

I don’t really know enough about screen readers to know if the issue exists, but if it did, maybe there’s a way to make the citations just not render as text? Like, have it be one big image file that also works like the interactive maps do and link to citations that way? Except I’m not sure how to shift the citations of everything else so that it starts at 49. (I don’t think having the Kris citations be last would work in image form since you’d then need a new image every time another citation is added in the article at all. Unless we just all elect to just start Kris’ pronoun citations at 101 or something, that’s another idea if we did do that you could then as text put the quotes Kris pronoun citations quote below the normal citations so they act like citations.)

All is is assuming the issue is what CharaCookie says the issue is, of course. (That is it reading out loud 48 numbers when the listener wants to just hear the main article already) If it’s something else what I said probably isn’t relevant. But if it is, maybe one of the ideas I gave will help solve the issue while also keeping the list on the article itself

Also I genuinely feel like Kris is a male

I believe that characters repeatedly calling them a they is so you can insert your own gender so you can relate to them more (also no I don’t believe they are a blank slate, they are their own person but I believe they started their own life as whatever gender you think)

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Also I respect real non binary people and will always use their proper pronouns (Also chara and frisk to me are girls for the same reason)

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The person who pointed it out said that it takes a long time to read out the whole list of links. What exactly happens is going to vary between different screen reading programs. When I tested it with the Windows narrator, it named every number like "link one, link two, link three" etc. which takes quite a while to get through the whole list. I have also asked the person who pointed this out to clarify, since I personally don't use a screen reader. I will comment here when/if I receive a reply.

If we do make a new page, I personally think Kris/Pronoun Citations would be the best choice. But other ideas on how to improve this are also welcome, it doesn't have to be a new page.

I see. I believe the solution to that is a hidden link for skipping pronoun citations, like there is a hidden link for skipping wiki navigation (you can see what I mean by visiting a wiki page and hitting Tab).

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if the issue is they can't skip through, then yeah kockas idea sounds good. does your friends screenreader already have an option to skip past the citations, though? is the issue that they can't easily read the citations? let us know when you get clarification ^^

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I implemented a button for skipping citations now when performing keyboard navigation. Does this resolve the issue? Here’s how the section looks when the button for skipping citations is not yet selected:

And here's how it looks like as you start doing keyboard navigation across citations:

Once you hit the button and continue navigating using your keyboard, you continue navigating after the Pronouns section contents.

Hi, I have received a response.


"using orca on linux: the exact read out i got was as follows:

Pronouns, heading 3. They/them. left bracket 1 right bracket link. left bracket 2 right bracket link. left bracket 3 right bracket link. [...and so on]

orca reads this line by line, so in my instance it stops reading at 10 and needs to be manually moved down a line. trying to leave the field proved difficult in of itself as it sounded like (key presses indicated with ↓):

superscript. ↓ superscri– ↓ super– ↓ super– ↓ Battle information, heading 2

as i am not visually impaired enough to require a screen reader myself i can't speak too much (perhaps there are settings i could've changed to condense the readout or keys i could've pressed), but the large volume of links, especially in a tight grid that may be hard to mentally map for key navigation without sight, is in my opinion an accessibility issue

one way to fix this would be to concatenate the sources into a single reference (especially as 46 out of the 48 are not re-referenced later, so the last 2 could be left alone for a reasonable 3 links), either making one giant reference that includes all the quotes, or linking to a new page on the wiki containing them (e.g. "Due to accessibility concerns, a full list of quotes can be found on Kris Dreemur/Pronoun Citation")

more detail on what i mean on combining: references 1-46 become the singular reference 1, and then 47 and 48 are automatically bumped down to 2 and 3 by the wiki renderer. this leaves 3 easy to navigate links."


I do think the solution you've suggested could maybe work? But it’s just a maybe. We don’t know for sure it actually helps for everyone. It’s possible it just makes the issue worse.

Also, I think the skip button’s purpose is just unclear. I feel like most users are gonna be confused on what the link is even there for. And if you are using a screen reader, you will probably not be able to see the giant list of citations. You’ll only know it’s long when you’re in the middle of it, and by then it’s too late.

I think that just having it be one link (or like a reasonable amount) is more effective, cleaner, more conventional, and less confusing. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a separate page if that’s an issue, it could just be a section in the article. But based on the person’s description I think reducing the amount of links is really the best solution.

Is there any reason you wouldn’t want to use the solution of linking to a separate page that I initially proposed? Knowing those reasons will help me come up with a suitable solution.

Even if it isn't right now, I feel like it needing to be a separate citation page is an eventual inevitability. Presumably as more chapters come out there will be more citations, by the time the game is done I could easily see there being >100 of them. I feel like having a whole page just for citations preserves the "humor" of it while being more accessible? Though I feel like the specific focus on screenreaders and the citation list is somewhat unusual, given that we also have pretty long lists for things like relationships and aliases. A better long-term solution might be to see if we can change the infobox template itself to allow skipping past sections more easily?

(Also are we really still getting "The player decides Kris's gender" in 2025? Hmm, perhaps I decide everyone in the world's gender when they are first created regardless of if they clearly have preferred pronouns that everyone calls them by. I know Toby code is bad but I think he could have figured out a pronoun selector if that was the intent.)

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Though I feel like the specific focus on screenreaders and the citation list is somewhat unusual, given that we also have pretty long lists for things like relationships and aliases.

The difference here is that those lists are not nearly as long (at least, personally I have not seen a page with anywhere close to 48 links or entries in their relationships/aliases/etc, and the list of pronoun citations is probably going to get a lot longer than that), and those lists for relationships, aliases, etc actually contain useful information instead of just being a list of numbers (the relationship links contain the names of characters for instance).

I think the funniest way is to just do like them, (LB Wiki) and when someone touches that ONE citation, there's a MOUNTAIN of citations waiting before them to read.

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Oh, is it actually possible to put citations inside of a collapsible, and if it is, how do screenreaders handle it?

(Yes, I’m still looking for ways to preserve the giant list on the article… while also removing the issue for accessibility. The 48 citations are funny. But also I’m all for accessibility, so I’m still tossing out ways we could have both)

Honestly having one "citation" that opens to a billion more citations is funnier, as it follows the kinda one-pronoun-citation-per-character thing we have for everyone but Kris to the naked eye, but underneath it's 48 citations in a trenchcoat.

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i cant think of any reason we couldnt move them off the page if that button doesnt work well like you said

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Correct option

Just make it a drop-down like battle info if the software lets you do that.

Wait...

THERE HASN'T EVEN BEEN ACTIVITY HERE

WHY AM I GETTING NOTIFIED

/necronotifyingiscoolnowig

Maybe it's the way you're dressed?