Proposed MOS change: guidelines on "also known as" entries

Wiki Discussion
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1

Currently, guidelines for what counts as an alias under the "also known as" list on character infoboxes only exist in precedent (i.e. discussions in the Discord and decisions regarding particular aliases), and in one sentence on the template's documentation page, stating: "Only list aliases if they are noteworthy and not one-off gags!" This has created debate as to what counts as an alias, "noteworthy," "one-off," or a "gag," and has also resulted in issues where editors are not familiar with the existing guidelines at all.

@Link has proposed an update to the MOS, with which myself and other staff members concur, to clarify on issues regarding aliases and to create a uniform standard as to what requirements must be met for an alias's inclusion.

@F-sharp proposed the following criteria:

  • Is it consistently used? (disqualifies one-offs)
  • Is it exclusive to this character? (disqualifies stuff like dumbass)
  • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? (disqualifies the prophecy names)
  • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? (disqualifies many of the noun and adjective descriptors)
  • Addendum for clarity: mutually exclusive names, such as the ones used for Onion or the team name, do not fail the consistency clause

We would like to hear your thoughts regarding this proposed change, and what improvements you would like to be made.

2

The criteria sounds solid at a glance, though I would like to ask if it has been stress-tested against commonly-agreed on aliases.

As for implementation, I would like to suggest a baked-in mouseover text or footnote in the character infobox that explains the criteria for what is included. It is the place people are guaranteed to be looking at when they notice an alias is not there, so putting the explanation there feels like a good idea.

3

my main concern here would be the removal of prophecy titles. currently we dont have any reason to believe theyre not talking about the specific character.

4

For those curious, here is a list of aliases we currently have listed for each character.

5

The identity of the individuals in the prophecy has been subject to much debate within the community, and I don't think it helps that the images in the panels are visually distinct from the characters in question (especially the one for "the girl"). Many of us have agreed that assuming their identities on the wiki would be too speculative.

6

Could we make a list of aliases that are going to be removed based on this criteria? If we're planning to significantly cut down the field, it might be worth doing what @SnorlaxMonster proposed and just getting rid of the field. We can introduce new fields for "internal names" and "battle form" and move out anything else noteworthy into the prose. We'll have to continue trimming down this field after every chapter release and I'm not sure there is enough utility in it to justify that.

7

I was originally with Snorlax's proposal and am still willing to consider it as an option if others are on board. I can start work on a list 2 to 3 days from now.

8

Completely eliminating the field is certainly a dramatic step, and potentially doesn't need to be the first step. I think it would make sense to cull the current alias field, move internal names to a separate "internal name" field, and then see what is actually left. If at that point it becomes clear that the alias field is really only used in a handful of cases, that's when it would be worth discussing eliminating it.

My assumption is that after culling all of the pointless names and moving the internal names, there will be maybe a handful of cases leftover. And that those cases won't justify keeping the field, as the field itself just attracts editors to add non-notable "names". But I think we can approach that point more gradually rather than jumping right into it.

9

I agree there need to be more explicit guidelines, and I think these ones are very fitting and get down to what the aliases are supposed to do. I do not agree with removing the field entirely, as some characters are commonly known by different names that definitely belong in the aliases field. If there are characters with no good aliases, the field will be removed from that specific page anyway, so I see no need to also remove it from the pages that could actually make use of it.

As a test, I went through a few characters on both UTW and DRW and applied these guidelines to the aliases that are currently listed.

DRW:

  • Gerson
    • Hammer of Justice
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • Old Man
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Partially yes: within the dark worlds of chapter 4.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Partially yes: within the dark worlds of chapter 4.
      • Result: Keep.
    • A great smith
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? No.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
    • THE TORTOISE
      • Is it consistently used? No: unused prophecy text.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes: the word tortoise isn't used anywhere else.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
  • Kris
    • Blue person
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes: Lancer consistently uses this as a substitute for Kris's name.
      • Result: Keep.
    • Krissy
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • Krismas
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • Little buddy
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes (within Deltarune).
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Usually yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • Kris Cross Applesauce
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No: only used twice, both immediately after saying just "Kris"
      • Result: Remove.

UTW:

  • Asgore
    • Gorey
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • King Fluffybuns
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • King Fluffyboy
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Remove.
    • Mr. Dreamy
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Remove.
    • King Dad
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Remove.
    • Mr. Dad Guy
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
  • Frisk
    • mainchara
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? No.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
    • The Human
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes (within the context of the game).
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
    • Human
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes (within the context of the game).
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • My child
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • kid/buddy/pal/bucko
      • Is it consistently used? Yes.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? No ("buddy" used elsewhere).
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
    • Punk/Brat/Little nerd
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
    • Dude/Friend
      • Is it consistently used? No.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? No.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? No.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No.
      • Result: Remove.
    • Young one
      • Is it consistently used? No (used exclusively in Asgore's death scene).
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Remove.
    • Little buddy/little weirdo
      • Is it consistently used? Yes (by Burgerpants).
      • Is it exclusive to this character? Yes.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes.
      • Result: Keep.
    • DARLING/UGLY LITTLE CREATURE
      • Is it consistently used? Yes (darling)/No (ugly little creature).
      • Is it exclusive to this character? No (darling)/Yes (ugly little creature).
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? Yes.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? Yes (darling)/No (ugly little creature).
      • Result: Remove.
    • HERO
      • Is it consistently used? Never used for Frisk.
      • Is it exclusive to this character? No.
      • Is it unambiguously meant to refer to this character? No: never used for Frisk.
      • Is it meant to be a substitute for the character's actual name? No: never used for Frisk.
      • Result: Remove.

So the final results for the four above characters would give the following aliases:

  • DRW
    • Gerson
      • Hammer of Justice
      • Old Man
    • Kris
      • Blue person
      • Krissy
      • Krismas
      • Little buddy
  • UTW
    • Asgore
      • Gorey
      • King Fluffybuns
    • Frisk
      • Human
      • My child
      • Little buddy/little weirdo

I think this list makes sense overall. A couple of these surprised me, but it's backed up by consistent use in the game and it's definitely better to base decisions off specific criteria than by vibes, since people may not remember the game dialogue as well as they think.

Overall, I'd vote yes for this MOS change.

10

Wait, how is "The Human" not a substitute for Frisk's name, but "Human" is? Isn't "The Human" a pretty consistent alias for Frisk in external media?

Either way, it's nice to see an actual test for whether this policy would result in good outcomes, and I'd say I wholly support this change now. I also want to highlight SnorlaxMonster's suggestion of a separate "internal name" field, as I think it would be a good idea to continue to list those, even if they don't pass the test to count as an "also known as".

11

For "human" versus "the human," the difference is that "the human" is referring to Frisk as the noun, "human." It's not meant to be a stand-in for a name, it's just meant to specify the species that the speaker is talking about. On the other hand, "human" on its own is often directed at Frisk and used specifically because the speakers don't have a name to call Frisk. It's so commonly used that it pretty much becomes a stand-in for your name for most characters up until Frisk's name drop (with exceptions like "my child"). It's like the difference between "the Snowdrake" (where Snowdrake is a species name) versus "Snowdrake" (where Snowdrake is a name or a stand-in for a name).

There's probably room for some debate on the borderline cases and I don't think there's any way around that, but these guidelines seem more than sufficient to decide on the more clear-cut aliases.