Even before Deltarune came out, people would say that Determination is "the trait of the red soul", compared to Patience, Bravery, Integrity, Perseverance, Kindness, and Justice. I considered this to be absolute fanon, as I did not see any evidence that Determination was even part of the same system of "soul traits". Nor did I see any evidence of Determination being associated with the color red.
This has changed in Deltarune Chapter 4. We now have evidence of Determination being associated with the color red:
Right before Susie stabs the ground to create the Second Sanctuary, we catch a glimpse of one of her eyes glowing red. Susie's eyes are not normally red. I can think of no reason for her eyes to glow red in this moment except for her being in the middle of creating a Fountain.
And the power that Lightners use create Dark Fountains is, of course, Determination. That much we know since Chapter 2:
This Power... This Power Of The Will
This Power Of Determination...
Is This Not Something That All Lightners Possess...?
If One Was Simply
Determined Enough
Could Not Anyone Make A Dark Fountain?
This does shed new light on that scene at the end of Chapter 1:
We see Kris's eye glowing red here not because their eyes are normally red, as I previously believed, nor is it a sign of possession. They're glowing red because of Determination. This hints at their intention of creating the Cyber World Dark Fountain that night (which I'm still convinced definetely happened).
That scene can also be connected to Tainted Pacifist’s ending in Undertale.
But I don’t think this is even close to definitive. Glowing red eyes being used as a trope for evilness/malice isn’t uncommon, and in every known scene, what happened there was something very arguably morally dubious at best, and malicious at worst. Opening Fountains is… supposed to be a bad thing.
Though in Deltarune, Red is most likely connected with Darkness itself, or the Knight. The Knight’s attacks have a lot of red in them as well.
The red soul trait is the combination of the six other traits. That is what BALL GAME tells us. It is no, one, singular thing. The closest we have is the second red flag, which is just… integrity again, so it compounds “it’s the other traits combined”. (If anything, MAYBE the meaning of red is “meta”/“player” shenanigans, because every single human we know for a fact has a red SOUL is linked to us in some way, know about our existence, two of which directly speak to us (Chara at the end of the Murder Route and Kris in Chapter 4 Weird Route (“please don’t”)). But I’m more in favor of it just being a combination of the six, since that has in-game confirmation.
…So, I take it I should have structured things better.
Connecting it to Tainted Pacifist means “now we have three cases of eyes glowing red, maybe all of them are connected in some way”
There’s also a divider between “here’s what the Susie scene means” and “here’s what the red trait is”. I do not believe the red eyes are connected with the red trait at all.
With that being said, let me make a more structured response, by dividing it into two sections:
The Red Eyes:What Are They?
We have three scenes showing red, glowing eyes. One when Chara plans something malicious, one when Kris also plans something malicious (the pie thing… The video footage Queen has proves the Knight was the one who made that fountain, not Kris, though they were premeditating the TV fountain as they plugged in the TV during that time)
The Knight’s attacks have a connection to red as well. Kris literally works with the Knight, Susie thinks making Dark Fountains is this cool thing even after she learned about the Roaring, and…
We all know Dark Fountains are bad. They’re what causes the Roaring. There should only be one of them, the Grand Fountain, to keep the balance between LIGHT and DARK.
No need to link it to SOUL traits. By the way, Susie is a monster, she has no SOUL trait. Her SOUL would be white. She has determination, yes, but so does literally every Lightner. This has ZERO connection to SOULs. The red SOUL trait is not “the thing that gave Susie the ability to make the Fountain”.
The Red Trait:What is It?
The game… gives us the answer!
Bravery. Justice. Integrity. Kindness. Perseverance. Patience. Using these, you were able to win at Ball Game.
Try as you might, you continue to be yourself.
The second is… just Integrity again. So it fits with the first. It’s the six traits combined.
That's certainly possible. But finding out that Determination's color is red would give some credibility to the red trait being Determination, which it had none before. That was enough to make me reconsider.
But I don't see any world where the glowing red eyes aren't related to Determination anymore.
... And one where Susie isn't planning something malicious at all. That's the exception that breaks the rule.
Queen's video doesn't show who made the Fountain. Their identity is obscured by smoke. And Chapter 4 showed us that King was by far less knowledgeable about the Knight as we were led to believe. It's possible that Queen is mistaken, or was deceived into believing, that the Knight made the Fountain themselves.
Heck, if it wasn't for a line near the end of the Sword Route, we would have left Chapter 3 believing that the Knight talked with Tenna in person to make a deal with him, when it was actually Kris who relayed the terms of the deal to Tenna. This establishes that Kris will act in the Knight's stead.
(None of this last part was relevant to Determination being red)
Lots of major characters have red attacks. This isn't special to the Knight. I don't see red attacks as being related to anyone's glowing red eyes.
"Bad" is a moral assessment, not an in-universe power. Nor is it a "real" part of a person's psyche like malicious intent would be. "Badness" isn't what's making Susie's eyes change color.
There is only one power said to grant someone the ability to create Dark Fountains: Determination.
This should have convinced you that this link is wrong. We already know exactly what the red trait is. As the final section proves. Red is the combination of all the traits. It is not its own thing. Which means it can’t be determination. It is, precisely, Bravery+Justice+Integrity+Kindness+Perseverance+Patience.
I’d like a response to that part. Or, if it’s too unrelated to Deltarune, maybe one of us will make a thread on the Undertale category. Where we discuss the Ball Game specifically.
And one where Susie isn't planning something malicious at all. That's the exception that breaks the rule.
The rest of my post is an attempt to explain why Susie making a Dark Fountain can still be considered as malice, in at least, some sense of the word. Though, looking back at the scene leading up to it… I can see it’s weaker than I thought (she’s definitely AGAINST the Knight. I wonder how she’ll take it when she finds out Kris works with the Knight…)
Queen's video doesn't show who made the Fountain.
It least shows the knife that was used. The BLACK KNIFE, the one we see the Roaring Knight use, as opposed to Kris’ Knife.
Heck, if it wasn't for a line near the end of the Sword Route, we would have left Chapter 3 believing that the Knight talked with Tenna in person to make a deal with him, when it was actually Kris who relayed the terms of the deal to Tenna. This establishes that Kris will act in the Knight's stead.
I’m still under the impression the deal Kris made is not the same deal as the one the Knight made. You’d think Tenna would be shocked that “Kris” (us) is asking for Tenna to do the thing the Knight told Tenna not to do (hand over Toriel) Though, the parenthesis below that… Fair point, one of us should make another thread about this topic.
Lots of major characters have red attacks. This isn't special to the Knight. I don't see red attacks as being related to anyone's glowing red eyes.
So I guess it’s just a color and doesn’t mean much of anything.
————————-
Another thing. Why don’t we hear the sound effect of glowing eyes in Asriel’s battle, when Frisk should be showing lots of determination? …Could it be, because determination is not the cause of this? …Though, I suppose the same argument could go for my hypothesis, the Knight’s eye doesn’t turn red when they made that fountain in Chapter 4, did it?
Seems there’s a little something wrong with both of our takes. What do all three scenes have in common… that no other scene does? That should help pin this down.
(It's ultimately important to the point that you made against Susie's eyes glowing red being Determination, so I'll address it here.)
"Red is the combination of all traits" is a nice theory, but you can't say that we know it for sure. The first flavor text for the red flag does not follow the same format as the flavor text of the other flags. And even if it did, the other flags don't actually name their traits either.
What the other flags actually do is give some flavor text about their respective fallen human. They of course touch upon their traits, because the six human don't have much character outside of the traits, but whatever character they do have is mentioned.
For example: Integrity was a ballerina, so their flavor text mentions "hopping and twirling". Kindness was a cook, so their flavor text mentions achieving a "delicious victory".
Does this work for the red flag? The actual red flavor text says:
RED - Try as you might, you continue to be yourself.
Can this work as a description of Frisk/Chara/Player?
Yes. It's basically a rewording of:
Despite everything, it's still you.
We don't know exactly what the red soul trait is. The red flag might not be saying anything about it. So it wouldn't be enough to convince me that the link between Susie's glowing eyes and Determination is wrong.
Does it? I don't recall anything about the video mentioning what type of weapon used to create the Fountain. Unless you're talking about Queen's hologram, in which case it certainly looks like Kris's knife.
I have a lot to say to this, but it doesn't directly lead to the point I'm making in this discussion. I might create another one later. Or if you do it first, I'll talk there.
Susie's eyes glowing while she's making a Fountain means something. With attacks, we can argue that it's just to make them visually distinct from "normal" white attacks.
Susie's eyes glowing red is not flashy. A first time player might not even realize it's happening. So it was made for some reason other than aesthetics.
The thing about the sound effect is just plain overthinking it. There's no reason we should expect to hear a non-diagetic sound effect for a visual effect we can't see.
But the thing about the Knight's eye not turning red is because that's not an eye. That's a mouth.
Why does the red flag name all the traits? If it’s not a confirmation that red is all the traits, I don’t know what WOULD be a confirmation that red is all the traits! That’s how I’d confirm red being all the traits if I were Toby-Making the red flag just list all the traits!
The first flavor text for the red flag does not follow the same format as the flavor text of the other flags.
Because red is not like the other “traits”. In fact, arguably, the red “trait” does not even exist at all. (If we, for whatever reason, ditch the “red is every trait”, my next candidate would actually be “red=player-adjacent”. All three humans known to have a red soul are linked to the player. Frisk is our vessel and knows about us (They visibly respond to us picking the soda.) Kris is our vessel, and it’s similar there too, but they’re more poised to take control from us. And Chara speaks to US at the end of No Mercy. (They also see the whole thing as a game, and attack the world itself. And “move onto the next” obviously means move onto the next game. Chara, the human, can’t move on with us, but Chara, the player entity, can)
But, since I’m convinced red=every trait is confirmed, player theory is not my actual take. It’s just what I’d switch to in an alternate timeline where the red flag didn’t exist.
And even if it did, the other flags don't actually name their traits either.
They describe the traits, though.
LIGHT BLUE - "Ball" is "Small." You waited, still, for this opportunity, ... then dethroned "Ball" with a sharp attack.
You waited, still… That’s just plain patience. The definition of patience.
PURPLE - Even when you felt trapped, you took notes and achieved the end of "Ball."*
Even when you felt trapped… you took notes and achieved the end.
Even when you felt trapped, you persevered. That’s the most natural reading of this.
GREEN - Your concern and care for "Ball" led you to a delicious victory.
What is concern and care for something, someone? Kindness.
BLUE - Hopping and twirling, your original style pulled you through.
So, this is a trickier one, but note the most weight is definitely on “original style”. Sticking to your own, original style. You firmly adhered to your OWN artistic style. That’s integrity.
YELLOW - Your sure-fire accuracy put an end to the mayhem of "Ball."
This is the trickiest one in the game. But why is it called the “mayhem” of “Ball” in only this one flag and no others? Mayhem refers to unnecessary violence. Something someone with justice would wish to put an end to. And surefire accuracy is important too, you need to make sure you don’t target any innocents!
ORANGE - You are the kind of person who rushes fists-first through all obstacles
To be willing to do that, run right through obstacles, instead of trying to go around them… takes quite a lot of guts. Bravery.
The flags describe the traits.
Now. The second red flag says this:
RED - Try as you might, you continue to be yourself.
This must, at least, on some level, be related to the red trait. But also… That’s literally just integrity. How does this make sense? Well…
Integrity is a part of the six traits that make red up, so… there you go. “Try as you might” could even link up with perseverance too.
If you’re wondering what some of the other parts of the flags mean, and why they’re there, they’re actually references to the soul modes and attacks as well! Proving a relationship between modes and traits!
You have to wait through light blue attacks. You have to run fist-first through orange attacks. Yellow mode shoots, so accuracy is important there. You jump/hop in blue mode, you’re trapped (on strings) in purple, and green attacks, you want to collect to heal. You first find it from Vegetoid where you’re supposed to “EAT” the greens.
Now, why is it so easy for the red soul to get turned into the other modes without any kind of issue? Well, if the red mode actually contained all six within itself…
The hologram would be Queen playing back the video. We don’t see the video directly, just a description that the Knight itself can’t be seen behind the bubbling.
…Though, looking back, we don’t see the bubbling. And here I thought it was supposed to be the footage. But, you’re right, that’s not the footage, it wouldn’t look like that if it was the footage, we’d see the bubbling that comes from fountains.
Which also means we can’t gauge Knight candidates based on whose hand looks like the one we see either…
Say, I wonder why ??? only exists in the closet Dark World (Which the Knight couldn’t have made, it’s from the Grand Fountain, the one fountain that’s supposed to be there keeping the balance, opposed to the Roaring) and TV World (the only Dark World we know for a fact was made by Kris?) I’m of the impression Kris made the Grand Fountain and TV World, and no other fountains, and ??? is linked to Kris specifically. (Meanwhile, warped darkness colors and out of order rooms is linked to Susie specifically, they only show up in the second sanctuary)
I really thought the knife being black would disprove it from being Kris’s (decidedly NOT black) knife…
Susie's eyes glowing while she's making a Fountain means something. With attacks, we can argue that it's just to make them visually distinct from "normal" white attacks. Susie's eyes glowing red is not flashy. A first time player might not even realize it's happening. So it was made for some reason other than aesthetics.
…That… doesn’t compute.
Ralsei randomly changing his pose in rare cases in the Chapter 2 “Think about Susie” thing is even less notable. But surely that has no narrative meaning.
The thing about the sound effect is just plain overthinking it. There's no reason we should expect to hear a non-diegetic sound effect for a visual effect we can't see.
You just said it wasn’t just an aesthetic. Is it diegetic or not? If the sound’s not diegetic, why do we even hear it? And also, why can’t we say the same thing about the flash itself? Might as well call it pointless. Also, isn’t Undertale/Deltarune THE series that makes EVERYTHING diegetic? I would have counted the sound as diegetic.
But the thing about the Knight's eye not turning red is because that's not an eye. That's a mouth.
…No part of the Knight turns red. I didn’t point to specific part of it and say “THAT part of it didn’t turn red!” I know its eye didn’t turn red because none of its entire body turned red.
Everytime someone posts anything about the Knight or the Fountains it spirals into THIS WAR. I saw someone posted a "Who's the Knight?" And then everyone was arguing.
And it's ALWAYS GlitchedSnow97 and someone else.
I like "arguing" about Deltarune theories, as long as it stays civil and doesn't devolve into insults. It's honestly my favorite part of being in an online fandom.
And this isn't the first time I was the "someone else".
The first red flavor text doesn't follow the same format as the flavor text of the other colors, but the second one does. The excuse that "red is special" doesn't work when an option that follows the format already exists. If the flavor text of the other colors are meant to hint at their traits, then we should look at the second red flavor text for the same, not the first.
So if red was a combination of all of the traits, I would just get hid of the second flavor text. Or change to something that doesn't follow the format. Additionally, I would have the six flags actually name their respective traits. So for example the purple one would say "PERSEVERANCE - ..." instead of "PURPLE - ..."
I do recognize that they hint at their respective traits, but it's not just that. "you took notes" refers to Perseverance's Torn Notebook, and while "hopping" can be referring to the blue soul mode, "twirling" cannot.
First, if red was the combination of all traits, there would be no reason to single out Integrity. I doubt one of the six would be more special than the others.
Second, this is not Integrity. Integrity is the refusal to break one's principles. Or, in the context given by the blue flag, the strict adherence to one's own style. It's not the inability to do so.
What the red flag says is, as I claimed, a rewording of "Despite everything, it's still you". Determination is a powerful thing. It is the will to change your own fate, and the fate of the world. It is the power you need to save everyone... Or bring everything into ruin. But no matter what you do, it doesn't change who you are. Undertale shows us, both in Flowey's backstory and it's own story, that the same person would be capable of both.
Toby didn't expect Undertale to be as popular as it did. But because it did, it changed how first time players would approach the game. People knew going in that there was a "good" route where you don't kill anyone and a "bad" route where you kill everyone. So people would check that mirror only once in the route where nobody died.
That wasn't the intention. That line, "Despite everything, it's still you", would be viewed multiple times, while the player did multiple neutral routes. Flowey fills the role of the "player surrogate", and his fall into madness achieving every outcome possible mirrors how Toby expected at least some of his playerbase would play the game. And every time they did, no matter what they did, the line "Despite everything, it's still you" would be waiting to greet them.
But anyway, the red flag text "Try as you might, you continue to be yourself" is just another way of saying the same thing. Which does give credibility to both Determination trait and player trait (which in my opnion is just Determination trait again).
I don't understand this. Why couldn't the Grand Fountain be created by the Knight.
It wasn't there for long, and you seem to agree with it since you say Kris made it, but why couldn't the Knight make it?
It is a lot more notable than the single red pixel in Susie's sprite. Toby certainly has a reason to include it, but I just think it's to troll speedrunners, who would run into something weird every now and then.
The visual flare coming out of the eye is asthetic, not the eyes being red. The sound doesn't have to happen if the visual flare doesn't happen.
The series doesn't make EVERYTHING diagetic. A lot of things are, but this is an exaggeration.
You did talk about the Knight's eye:
If the Knight is hiding it's face with a helmet (which I believe, due to the "Think of the Knight" part of Chapter 4), then we don't see the Knight's eyes due to the helmet.
So why does it exist? Why do we even have the first red flag?
And no. There isn’t a way to add it in the format. If you think there is, try and add such a description that matches the format. Here’s my best attempt, and as you can see, it’s very, VERY awkward:
RED- You showed surefire accuracy because of your care and concern for BALL, bravely hopped and twirled with your original style, took notes, and waited for the perfect opportunity.
So if red was a combination of all of the traits, I would just get rid of the second flavor text.
I think the second flag only exists to confirm that yes, there is such a thing as a red trait, and it’s what the first flag was talking about, it’s not just red because it’s the only color that wasn’t used before. That’s why it just… rewords blue but with a sprinkle of purple.
Or change to something that doesn't follow the format. Additionally, I would have the six flags actually name their respective traits. So for example the purple one would say "PERSEVERANCE - ..." instead of "PURPLE - ..."
Red flag names the traits by color to confirm the colors refer to the traits, and this is the culmination of them all. The words are actually written in the colors of each trait on the red flag! And it’d be redundant when the flags already do describe the traits. The traits are named by color so you know THIS color is THAT thing. It’d be a bit harder to parse if it were the other way around and the red flag confirmed the colors of each trait, rather than the trait of each color. We’d go “Wait, why are the traits we just read given in these colors… does it just refer to the flags?” But here, we can go “Oh, so that purple trait labeled purple was perseverance”, etc…
I do recognize that they hint at their respective traits, but it's not just that. "you took notes" refers to Perseverance's Torn Notebook, and while "hopping" can be referring to the blue soul mode, "twirling" cannot.
So, confirmation the ball game was made after every human before Frisk fell, then?
First, if red was the combination of all traits, there would be no reason to single out Integrity. I doubt one of the six would be more special than the others.
Well, we do also have “try as you might”, reference to perseverance? So, two traits. And, as I pointed out, it’d get really awkward to put all six in there. Besides, that’s what the first red flag was for! The one you were supposed to read before this one! The one that’s clearly more important since it was put first!
Second, this is not Integrity. Integrity is the refusal to break one's principles. Or, in the context given by the blue flag, the strict adherence to one's own style. It's not the inability to do so.
It doesn’t say you had the choice to deviate from your original style, just that your original style pulled you through. It’s entirely compatible with how the red flag words things. You continue to be yourself.
What the red flag says is, as I claimed, a rewording of "Despite everything, it's still you".
So the red trait is ipseity by that reasoning.
But no matter what you do, it doesn't change who you are.
That… wouldn’t change if we took away determination. This still looks like ipseity. Or integrity.
Which does give credibility to both Determination trait and player trait (which in my opnion is just Determination trait again).
I don’t equate the two. The player is not the manifestation of determination itself. Player trait is simply that the red soul implies a link to us, or something like us. A being from the world above Undertale, a player-entity posessing and controlling a vessel. Like we possess Frisk and Kris. And Chara being able to speak with us directly. Nothing to do with being determined. If we took control of the other humans, and they were aware of it, they’d also have a red soul under this reading. This is why we never control anyone who does not have a red soul. We can’t even control Susie because she doesn’t have a red soul. We might be able to control Noelle in the future if the red pixel grows into a soul or a way for us to put our soul into her.
Though, again, that’s not my main reading, it’s my reading if “all traits” is debunked. (Besides, it’s incompatible with the idea the other six human souls were also possessed by player-esque entities! And since Flowey demonstrates a rule that essence is in the body, not the soul, yet Chara controls Asriel through the soul (though they use that name in quotes at the end of Geno, which could imply it’s a player entity too, not the human), and the six souls act on their own in Flowey’s boss fight (which could imply… more player entities since the essence was supposed to be in the dead bodies?)
I don't understand this. Why couldn't the Grand Fountain be created by the Knight.
Because the Knight is trying to disrupt the balance, not help it.
It wasn't there for long, and you seem to agree with it since you say Kris made it, but why couldn't the Knight make it?
The Knight is trying to disrupt the balance, not help it. But they probably were the one to close the door.
Anyway, can you think of any other reason why only those two dark worlds specifically had the ??? area?
The visual flare coming out of the eye is asthetic, not the eyes being red. The sound doesn't have to happen if the visual flare doesn't happen.
What standards are you even using to make these judgements?
The series doesn't make EVERYTHING diagetic. A lot of things are, but this is an exaggeration.
No, it’s everything as far as I’m aware. The text boxes (“READING this isn’t the best use of your time”, also Deltarune Chapter 4 weird route, and “Pronounced Shawm”), the soul coming out of you for battle, dialogue choices, the buttons, turns, even Toby Fox himself! (He’s the dog and the dogroom confirms he made Undertale, so Undertale is canon in Undertale. We’re reaching Homestuck levels of shenangigans) Even the interactive title is diegetic (Mettaton and Flowey mess with it), and the game’s INTRO! (Flowey messes with that.) And the naming screen! (That’s what Chara refered to be us calling their name). I can’t think of a single thing that’s not diegetic.
Even datamining, which isn’t even part of the game proper, is arguably diegetic if we go off the theory that the “scratching” in UNUSED is supposed to be us digging through the code searching for her.
Though that one would only be diegetic in Deltarune, and is a part of the metanarrative with DEVICE (Device Theory is a really good theory, and my only notes are the assumption that Undertale Gaster is Deltarune Gaster, my own take says there are two Gasters just like every other character. More on my take on the whole metanarrative later, that’s what my upcoming megatheory is all about)
But everything in the game proper, as far as I’m aware, is diegetic.
There’s even evidence the soundtrack is diegetic. Which is probably the one thing I could see people trying to argue is totally not diegetic.
Asriel’s theme is actually playing in a music box, and you have to play it to solve a puzzle. the theme of Toriel’s house changes to being played by a music box in certain situations as well. A decent chunk of Undertale’s soundtrack gives dialogue in Deltarune Chapter 4, and Kris plays a few songs from the Deltarune soundtrack (as well as some more songs that will probably be in the soundtrack in the future!) if you go to the room where Kris is speaking to Carol, get caught by Kris and shoved back in the box, return there and wait for Kris to finish their drink.
Oh, and Lost Girl is a real song. It’s called “Raise Up Your Bat”
Yes, I made that claim. I’m saying, my reasoning behind that claim is that NONE of the Knight turned red, therefore, its eye could not have turned red.
You’re not wrong about what I said, you were wrong about the reasoning behind it. I was not referring to its mouth. I was referring to the fact there was no red twinkle AT ALL. If its eye twinkled, we’d see it, right? We didn’t. So we know, for a fact, that its eye did not turn red.
If the Knight is hiding it's face with a helmet (which I believe, due to the "Think of the Knight" part of Chapter 4), then we don't see the Knight's eyes due to the helmet.
Yet we still see its mouth. Also, the mouth and the eyes would be the two parts of the face that a helmet wouldn’t cover (The Knight still needs to breathe and be able to see!)
We don’t usually see Kris’ eyes either, but we still see the red glow at the end of Chapter 1. I would say we should have expected a red glow above the mouth.
(Say, what program can I use to edit every frame of a gif and spit out an edited gif? In case I wanted to show the full animation instead of just the first frame?)
