Coverage of monsters from the Sword Route

A few days ago, I was working on coverage of the Sword Route monsters before I had a bit of a bad day and blew up over something tiny - I apologise for that! In the interests of ensuring the work doesn't get lost, I thought I'd put some stuff here.

Xiiiiii why should we cover these?!

Otherwise known as an "Argument"...

Let's first look at how ZeldaWiki covers its monsters, which are similar to what we have here.

https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/Red_Lanmola

https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/Red_Moblin

https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/Blue_Darknut

https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/Red_Lynel

Some of these pages are not complete. The main point here is that, well, it's certainly not abnormal to want to cover these. Obviously, "different wiki, different policies," but we can at least see that there is information here that people will want to see: Enemy behaviours, where they can be found, and so on.

Taking inspiration, I made a maximal example in the Black Monster, which would benefit most from being made its own page:

https://deltarune.wiki/w/User:大佬233/Black_Monster

Beyond the internal stats and the like, the main benefit to this page is funnelling the "spooky black deer" thing into this page and explaining how it works in full. We can also funnel allusions into this without giving the Original Game a giant list of them. This feels like a very strong page.

Then for a minimal example, there is the Purple Monster, which has very little to it:

https://deltarune.wiki/w/User:大佬233/Purple_Monster

Even here, things like statistics, sword immunity, behaviour, and appearances are all useful information that would cause the Original Game page to bloat, or at least lead to a very large, uncomfortable table with a lot of information for someone to read. If someone keeps dying to the Silver Fish or Spear Boss, then they would probably want to find that specific creature's information, and maybe information on strategy. A table like that would serve neither purpose.

I did find the code a bit difficult to navigate, as, for example, the monsters, would all come from a single point which would then "overlay" differences across them. Therefore, I see documenting the stats as a way to make life easier for the everyman(!) as well.

The arguments for these creatures to be given their own page are therefore in line with @F-sharp's splitting of NPC pages and the like; if someone wants to find information on an individual thing, they should be given the opportunity to do so, and get the most information possible for it. These creatures have more to them than a Hometown NPC in some ways, so they should have pages.

I think covering the unused monsters is worth it from a TCRF documentation-style thing, though there is the "It's not canon grr" argument I guess? Still think it's worth having, it's in the game after all. Maybe have one of those silly "GRRR THIS IS NOT CANON" banners up there or something.

Infobox

At the top of both example pages, you will see statistics that would be ideal for an infobox, and a Darkner infobox for the creature that sucks. The current infobox is designed for regular Darkners, which isn't ideal for these creatures, as they have different stats. Here is a table with the Purple Monster's values so it's clearer.

Field Value
Internal Name monster
Health 1
XP yield 1
Sword immunity 1
Docile Yes

"Docile" refers to whether you need the Sword and LV2 to make the creature damage you; the Sword immunity is the Sword level required to damage the creature. You would want Board appearances as well, of course (do we call them Boards when they're not Tennafied? internally they're still called that, so maybe..? is this a can of worms we shouldn't open?).

EvieMaybe mentioned that because names are internal-only, we should probably not include the conjectural name in the header. Not fussed about that personally (it feels like beating around multiple bushes for the same result...) but it's useful to recall.

The Shadow Mantle holder would benefit from this kind of infobox, as it's still being funnelled into the Darkner statistics, which results in weirdly long strings for a table meant for numbers.

On names

None of the creatures in the Original Game have names stated in-game. The Original Game page uses their internal names, spaced and capitalised, which I think is fine for page names.

@EvieMaybe mentioned that it would be worth decapitalising and noting the names are conjectural given their internal nature, which seems fine and I don't care too much about. This would mean the Original Game page would need to decapitalise the monsters in the table, though, as well as do the funny this thing to them. There's also the matter of monster variants being conducted in the way I mentioned earlier, which means they do not actually have internal names of their own. There's no shame in a name! How could Fantastic Mr. Fox do this?!

On the Original Game page, I did notice that I couldn't find references for the coloured monster names. I am assuming they are somewhere, but when I was going through the code, nothing dropped. There only seemed to be three colours noted, which obviously isn't correct. Given the Original Game page seems to use internal names, my assumption is I just didn't look hard enough.

There is something that the wiki does not note right now, which is spearboss. This is the name used for the Asgore-like event in the Manhole dungeon, which is basically a variable you set to true and then the monster goes crazy and deals damage with decreased iframes. I do not know whether that monster should have its own page or be attached to the "goldenrod" monsters.

So, uh...yeah, whatcha think? Wanna cover these? Do the lil support/this-is-evil-and-should-explode thing with reasoning or however vote things work.

Hey, it's me, the girl mentioned in the post! I'm gonna go section-by-section with my thoughts, but I agree that we should be covering these individually.

Why cover these?:
I agree that we should be taking notes from other wikis here. The Sword Route game segments are essentially a separate mode of gameplay, and forcing their coverage to adhere to a JRPG wiki's model is doing the gameplay a disservice. Our current coverage is severely anemic, and this is a major improvement.

Infobox:
A dedicated infobox for Sword Route enemies seems sensical, considering their stats and required listings are different. I do insist on the lack of a name in the header, as the enemies' namelessness is a big and deliberate part of the Sword Route's atmosphere. This also leads into...

Names:
I very much want to stress that we should not be treating these enemies' filenames as their names. We of course have to title the page something, and sourcing said title from the game files is the most sensical choice, but it should be resoundingly clear from reading the page that the enemies are nameless, and the moniker is only for convenience, and said moniker should be used as little as possible within the page itself.

As a potential naming scheme, I suggest utilizing sentence case, as well as appending the word "enemy" to the end. "White monster enemy", "blue fish enemy", etc. These can be shortened to just "white monster" and "blue fish" in text or navboxes.

Misc. thoughts:
A suggestion I want to float is merging enemies with the same base sprite into one page. One for the lizards, one for the flowers, one for the fish, and so on. I can see this being controversial, especially considering how prolific the "monster" enemy type is, but I do want to point out that many of them have identical (or near-identical) behaviors. If we do not do this, at the very least we should merge the flower enemies into one, as well as the light and dark yellow monster enemies, since their color variations are purely aesthetic.

Funnily enough, before the big Original Game page was created, someone did attempt to document the Original Game enemies. It was a large list page formatted like the NPC pages of old, and when the Original Game page did go live, it was all converted into the enemies table you see now.

I think we can get away with making separate pages for each monster/monster group. They all act differently on each board, so stuffing it all in a table was probably not the best idea long term.

Misc. thoughts:

I think merging the monsters into category-style pages can result in problems if that is the extent of it. I broadly agree with everything else.

The monsters, as you say, are prolific, and their behaviours are all very different despite the aesthetic similarity. This would end up replicating the same issue we saw with the "silo" pages for broad NPC categories: You see a bunch of things that look similar, but aren't, and thus it becomes harder to browse. The most minimal example shows that there is a good bit of information for each enemy, and not a lot that would repeat for each monster. I can see the argument for a motherpage of sorts that goes "oh yeah these guys exist, they have these consistencies and come from a single template, here's all the pages if you need something specific" but that's really the extent of it.

Each monster has different stats, behaviours, appearances, and so on, and there is also spearboss. spearboss (and any enemy with a complex attack; e.g. Orange & goldenrod monsters; the cats; etc) would want its own small strategy section, being a boss, and an area where people very frequently die, let's be real. We also see location-dependent behaviours. Likewise, we see that each monster has its own allusion, and ideally these sections should not be very long. With such little overlap, I really don't see why they would want to be merged beyond "I mean, they look the same."

I can see the Flowers and Fish not going beyond a "category" page but even there I still think it would be reasonable to cover them individually: The Gold Flower specifically has its own script, and the Silver Fish is effectively a boss fight in and of itself. The Lizards also have completely different behaviours, just like the monsters. The Cats would probably suffer from being merged as well because they are just not the same enemies at all.

I think this is a case where ZeldaWiki's implementation should really be looked to - it does not take the aesthetic similarity as a signal for a single motherpage, and is successful for that. There is a point where being conservative begins to actively hurt information retrieval.

Probably worth putting forward the idea of a navbox for Sword Route characters as well, which would probably make everything easier. They are currently all in the Chapter 3 section of the Characters navbox, but maybe a navbox specifically for the Original Game could be useful? Saves scanning the navbox every time, and also saves someone looking for, say, Shuttah, in a slew of Sword Route stuff they do not care for. I guess you'd put them in Chapter 3 characters anyway, but if that were the case, sectioning it off would be wise.

Assuming it is covered to the greatest extent, the Original Game navbox could go this way:

Monsters (Black, Purple...) · Fish (Blue, Silver) · Cats (Singing, Silent) · Lizards (Yellow, Jumpy, Alt) · Flowers (Gold...) · Blue Bird

HERO_SWORD · HERO_AXE · HERO_SCARF · White Cloak · Tenna

Rotaty · Bouncy

Fern · Cactus · Palm Tree · Dungeon Tree · Stanchion

This would assume a broader monster category page is used along with individual coverage, then the possibility of unused and breakable hazards is thrown in. I see it as reasonable.

I agree with the Original Game enemies having unique pages. Though there are some enemies that I could see only being covered in one page. If that were to happen, the only enemies which I think should be handled like that would be the flowers (orange, purple, and yellow flowers) and the spear monsters (goldenrod, and yellow monster; maybe with a unique page for the boss in the manhole dungeon?). The rest of the enemies have behaviors unique enough to justify different pages in my opinion.

This should be done! Current coverage of these enemies is very minimal.

Also for the infobox, if you want to showcase how it works better, you could create a userspace infobox. For example, this has already been done for the battle formations draft:

https://deltarune.wiki/w/User:KockaAdmiralac/Formation/doc

Ok after giving myself a heart attack I think I got something going

https://deltarune.wiki/w/User:大佬233/Infobox_originalgame/doc

I shall let the smarter people figure out how to engooden it further (particularly with handling locations, the funny "OOOO UR DARK AND HAVE THE WHITE OUTLINE" and making sure the internal name has thesethings

It's great, added it to your sandboxes. On the topic of the Sword Route enemies, we are going to need screenshots for them in main story. And I've been thinking, maybe it would be better to use cropped images of just the game screen and no Kris?

It's unusual, but we already have non-plain-in-game images with the location images (no party visible)... I feel like, for example, the Purple Monster, you'd want an image of it in one of its locations, but having the outer part of Kris playing the game and the visuals of the Backstage Area just makes this less clear. It's not the case for stuff like the Shadow Mantle holder since Kris playing the game is very notable there. What do you think?

I think a screenshot of the Original Game with no Kris controlling it would be incredibly cool. +1 from me. Policy? Fuhgeddaboudit.......

I think consensus here is enough that makes more page draft creations worthwhile.

Here's a early unfinished draft for blue bird, since I find it to be one of the most notable.

https://deltarune.wiki/w/User:PapyrusPikmin/Blue_Bird

Feel free to expand, edit, etc. Your work on purple monster and black monster was excellent.

Great stuff, great stuff! I've added what I can see code-wise. This is one case where reviewing unused content to make GIFs could be important...

I noticed that I didn't account for varying sword levels in the infobox, which will be important for the birdie specifically!

I've been thinking... what will we do with FRIEND for the Original Game?

Do we make a FRIEND (Original Game)? I feel having Behavior on the main FRIEND page could be a bit odd, considering how its just for a specific encounter. Same situation with making FRIEND use the Original Game infobox. I could see FRIEND (Original Game) working if it's super short just for the Infobox + Behavior, with the Main story being a short summary + {{Main|FRIEND#Chapter 3}}. What do you think?

Also similarly, do we rework the SM holder to use Original Game infobox + behavior in Profile?

I'd be open to pages for FRIEND and Tenna, actually, akin to how Lanino and Elnina are covered as individual items. Same reason I'd cover the breakable terrain (certainly not as outlandish as covering Laddery, right?).

Lil things here...

https://code.deltarune.wiki/ch3/gml_object_obj_board_dungeon3_tenna_create_0

https://code.deltarune.wiki/ch3/gml_object_obj_dungeon3_tennataps_create_0

I think Tenna could work, yeah. We just have to decide if we want the main story section content on these pages (FRIEND, Tenna), to be a short summary with the main info being on the non-OG game page, or if it should be the other way round.

Oh dear, this thread grew a LOT when I wasn't looking.

Whoa there. I don't think we need to cover every single breakable object individually. They're all basically the same, splitting that apart into five pages would suck. All they do is vanish when hit by a sword.

This infobox is pretty good, though some parameters are oddly phrased. I assume "Immune at" means "minimum level required to deal damage to this enemy"?

Considering Kris's head covers the very bottom of the screen, I think cropping it is not a viable idea.

I think Tenna doesn't need to be covered separately. He essentially amounts to an NPC you can hit once, giving his game construct self a separate page only for that seems like overkill, and unnecessary splitting of information. As for FRIEND, I could go either way, as I personally see them less as individual enemies and more as a part of Mr. Mantle's boss fight. It's kind of a similar case as Berdly being part of Queen's boss fight.

Overall, I enjoy seeing these drafts. This is heading towards something real good.

I was considering edited versions removing Kris, not direct rips from the game unedited. Similarly to how area page images are edited versions, not direct rips from the game unedited, since the party is not visible in them.

Whoa there. I don't think we need to cover every single breakable object individually. They're all basically the same, splitting that apart into five pages would suck. All they do is vanish when hit by a sword.

We cover Spikery, Signery, Chairery, Laddery, and Shrubbery which are all the same joke..? There's little bits that can be covered for sure - like the Fern being in The Legend of Tenna and the Cactus having that one tsundere one. There's also the Sword Immunity Level which is different for every single hazard. We cover a lot of other stuff for less here. Like, Dust Piles are effectively the same thing in functionality here, except breaking them does not have a pre-requisite, and those get pages. Wobbly things have pages.

Say someone wants to know how to break a certain thing - they may search what they see: A palm tree, a fern, etc. Then they get their answer + where else it occurs and when it is necessary to get through a passage. Done.

Then edit them? PapyrusPikmin edited it after I set vars, and I'm not really up for editing it as you'll probably have a better idea anyway. The key is it needs to be brief.

I did notice that there seem to be two kinds of dociles, one where attacking leads to the hitbox being active (bluebird) and one where you get to LV2 and they start attacking (most others).

Maybe, or modding the head out (though at that point, just have a real screenshot...)

I mean...is it so different to Lanino and Elnina being covered as items in The Legend of Tenna? Genuine question here. We see HERO_SWORD, HERO_AXE, and HERO_SCARF as distinct entities to the Party. Tenna controls the in-game Tenna, the SOUL controls the in-game HERO_SWORD. What makes Original Game / Legend of Tenna...Tenna...different in this regard? Or are you advocating for merging all of those? He appears a lot, I dunno. It feels right to be consistent.

As for FRIEND, I would advocate for it on the basis of mechanics and allusions; it helps untangle it and John Mantle, y'know? Wikis aren't platforms for siloing information in large, sprawling pages. They're for giving someone an easily searchable area for indexed information. If we look at Mx. ERAM Mantle's page right now, we see that the information on FRIEND is currently nested into the Phase 2 section, which is extremely unideal for someone who is less interested in Nightmarekins and just brainrotted on FRIEND theories from YouTube. The information there is good as-is, but a FRIEND-specific page could go over movement patterns, the candy drops in detail, when they despawn, the Easter Egg appearances throughout the game (which would distinguish them significantly from other enemies, mind you), and so on. I think it is perfectly reasonable: The FRIEND enemy is not merely a thing from the boss fight, it appears beforehand, it just isn't something you can attack until the fight.

I made drafts for Gray monster, Orange monster and the Fire bar obstacle (though no image, appearance or damage section yet for Fire bar.)